Can anyone help?

[keyofc]

Hello,
I met with a person who was going to possibly help me in theory.  I have had theory, but it has always been difficult, although interesting to me.  Whatever theory I have learned has seemed to really help me in my playing the piano and also have used some in teaching.
Well, this young man was about 20 years younger than me, very nervous and I tried to make him comfortable,  The result was he became overconfident and quite arrogant.  By the time the "interview" was over I had listened to his compositions for 3 hours.  I kept telling him we must end it, but he kept going and I didn't know how to end it.  Listening to his compositions was not part of my plan in the first place, but one would have been OK.  It was an unbelievable experience.  I am leaving many things out.  He even said if I obeyed him, it would go well with me.  THat's when I figured out how to end the meeting....
The reason I'm even thinking about it any more is that he had a formula I had never seen and it was a very nice shortcut.
 Has anyone or does anyone know of a way of using the order of flats to arrive at any key signature by counting the flats or sharps you are looking at?
  He showed me a key sig - I do know my key sigs, for crying out loud, but I don't always remember ones like eb minor - so I told him off the top of my head I could not think of it.  Then he got on all the modes.
Anyway, he wrote down B E A D G C F with a left arrow for sharps, and a right arrow for flats, He went on to prove you could determine what key  something was in  by counting sharps, or flats either clockwise or counterclockwise.  For relative minors and modes, even if you forgot all other associations. (But I do not remember all of the steps) I was able to follow him while he did it - but when I went home- I forgot how he did it.
   DOes anyone know this approach? 
  I was not even going to him for help with any of this - we never got into what kind of theory help I really wanted which was more in composition and in jazz theory.
  But after he showed me this, I had to admit to myself it was a great shortcut and would be very useful  in sharing with others too.
   SOrry for the long drawn out email - I am not going to hire him to help me, because I was not comfortable with him, but I sure would like to figure this short cut out.
   Having knowledge is one thing.  Transferring it is another.  Transferring it with class is quite a gift.  Whatever knowledge I have - I hope I transfer it with class. 

   

[ingagroznaya]

Key of C,
you must be talking about Circle of 5th.
The order in which sharps occur in key signatures is:
F-C-G-D-A-E-B.

The order of flats is B-E-A-D-G-C-F.

If you'll get an Alfred's "Book of Scales, Chords, Arpeggios and Cadences", you'll find all this information on a cover of the book.

[keyofc]

Hi Ingagro,
Thanks fo your response - I think my email may have been difficult to understand.  I was upset when I wrote it....it doesn't help..
I am familiar with the circle of fifths - and the minor circle of fifths.  I am able to arrive at
my key sigs that way.  But this person had a unique approach in using it for the key sigs of modes too.  When he explained it, I could follow him - but couldn't remember later.

Do you have an easy way you use the circle of fifths for determing the key sigs of modes?
Second question - although this is good to know for a theory test - have you ever seen sheet music written that way?  In jazz we don't have a lot of sheet music when improvising, but I've never bought sheet music that had modal key sigs.  Have you?

[jlh]

This is not a circle of 5ths method, but it works.  This is an easy way to both figure out the key signatures of modes and also play the parallel modes.

Say you want to play the Ionian mode in any key, what's the key signature?  Of course it's the major key signature for the key you're in.  So that if you are on the key of C, there are no sharps or flats in Ionian.  C-Ionian, D-Dorian, E-Phrygian, F-Lydian, G-Mixolydian, A-Aeolian and B-Locrian are all related to one another in that they share the same key signature.  If you're in E-flat Major, you have 3 flats for E-flat Ionian, and so on, and if you're starting on E-flat Ionian, you similarly use the same key signature for all modes on that key, so that for instance F-Dorian will also have 3 flats, G-Phrygian has 3 flats, and so on.  It's the same for every key.  Confused yet?

Now to transpose the mode (ie., find a parallel mode), here's the steps you take in this method:

1. First determine what mode you want on what key. 
2. Then determine what the INTERVAL difference between the mode you're in, and Ionian mode, going upward from Ionian.  Such as Phrygian mode is a Major 3rd up from Ionian, Lydian is a Perfect 4th up , etc.
3. Once you know the interval, mirror that interval DOWN from the note that Ionian starts on.  The note you end up on is the key signature (major) that you will use.
4. Using this key signature and the starting key in Step 1, play the mode.

Let's try an example:

1. Let's do Lydian mode on the key of B.
2. The interval difference between Ionian and Lydian is a Perfect 4th UP.
3. A perfect 4th DOWN from B is F-sharp, which is our key signature, which is F-sharp Major (6 sharps).
4. Using the key signature of F-sharp Major, play the mode starting on B.

So then the Lydian mode on the key of B is:

   B - C# - D# - E# - F# - G# - A# - B

This will work every time provided you know your intervals well -- substituting a minor 3rd for a major 3rd (for instance) will give you a wrong result.

Here's some more resources for you about modes:
https://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-modes.html
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Music:Modes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_(music)
https://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-seven-modes-of-music.htm

Josh

[keyofc]

Hey Josh,
Thank you very much!  I think I am getting it.
If I want to be in D Lydian, then since I know a P4 is interval between ionian and lydian, I go a p4 down to A?  A major key sig for D Lydian?
If I want to be in F# mixolydian, would I say mixolydia is a P5 from ionian, so I'm going down a P5 to B? B Major key sig for F# mixolydian?
Is that right? 

[keyofc]

So since this works by using Perfect 4ths - that must be why he used the order of flats instead of the order of sharps

[keyofc]

Just wanted to say thanks again.  I worked all the modes out that way and it works perfectly.
I don't know why I never thought of something like that
The relative minors are really aeolian modes  so why not think of all the modes as relative positions as well?

I hate to ask, but are their minor modes too?

[jlh]

I'd like to know what your tutor's method was...  The only thing I can come up with is a memorization of the modes' order as it relates to the circle of 5ths (or cycle of 4ths).

If you look at the circle of 5ths, choose one of the pitches and you have Ionian.  The next note clockwise is the key sig of Lydian.  Following the circle in counter-clockwise motion and the next note past Ionian is the key sig for Mixolydian, followed immediately by Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian and Locrian.  This works only for transposing Ionian to a parallel mode.

I should make and market a circle of 5ths "wheel" with a moveable second wheel attached which solves the key sig problems related to modes.  I'd be a millionaire!

Dibs!

Hey Josh,
Thank you very much!  I think I am getting it.
If I want to be in D Lydian, then since I know a P4 is interval between ionian and lydian, I go a p4 down to A?  A major key sig for D Lydian?
If I want to be in F# mixolydian, would I say mixolydia is a P5 from ionian, so I'm going down a P5 to B? B Major key sig for F# mixolydian?
Is that right? 

I'm glad I was able to help!  It's easy to see why this works... because for every key there are 7 modes that all share the same key signature (which is the major key signature of the key that is shared with Ionian).  To find the key sig of any of those modes, find Ionian and you've got it!

Another bit of trivia about modes is that the Dorian mode is also unofficially called "Russian Minor".  It was used so much by Russian composers that the nickname was given.

Also, Locrian is used so seldomly that it's really not useful to study it much.  It's more theoretical than anything -- and too unstable for most uses.

I hate to ask, but are their minor modes too?

Figuring out which modes are major and which are minor is even simpler.  All you have to do is make a diatonic 1-3-5 triad on the 1st degree (C-E-G in C Ionian) and if it's a major triad, then the mode is major. 

Major Modes:
Ionian
Lydian
Mixolydian

Minor Modes:
Dorian
Phrygian
Aeolian
Locrian


---
Josh

[keyofc]

If I ever see that guy again, I"ll ask him to demonstrate his approach again.  And then I will write it down while he is saying it.  It had to be based upon all of this knowledge of relative positions, don't you think?

What I meant about minor modes -do you know if they also have modes based on the minor scale?
Thanks again - maybe you should  be a tutor. So many people think you need to use a book that has 35 pages dedicated to making one point.

I always had a mental block with modes before - and it is clear to me now!

[letters]

to know the order of sharps you put on a key signature you go

Farmer
Charles
Goes
Down
And
Ends
Battle

to know the order of flats you put on a key signature you go

Battle
Ends
And
Down
Goes
Farmer
Charles

if you want to know what key the piece is in, take the last sharp on the key signature. this is the leading note (the 7th note) in the scale of the key. for example in D major you have a F# and a C#. The C# is the last note on the key signature and is the leading note of a D major scale.

if you have flats on the key signature, then you take the penultimate flat on the key signauture, and that is your key. for example in Eb major you have Bb, then Eb, then Ab. THe penultimate flat is Eb, and that is your key.

i know nuffink about modes though!

[keyofc]

Josh,
Making a circle of fifths with modes would be a great idea!  On a poster or something.
THere is a website called zazzle.com
They also make T-Shirts, of different ideas people present.
If you have an idea - they will make it if they like it.  You retain copyrite, I think,
I'm not sure it's suc h a great idea for making money - but it's fun.

I bought a sweatshirt with chord progressions on it.  Yes, I am a music nut, but arent' we all?

[keyofc]

For whoever cares, I figured out if you did the modes around the natural minor scale,
you would come up with the same modes, just in a different order.
C D Eb F G Ab Bb C         W H W W H W W (same as Aeolian)

D Eb F G Ab Bb C D         H W W H W W W  (Same as locrian)

Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb      W W H W W W H  (same as Ionian)

F G Ab Bb C D Eb F         W H  W W W H W (same as dorian)

G Ab Bb C D Eb F G         H W W W H W W  ( same as phrgian)

Ab Bb C D Eb F G Ab      W W W H W W H ( same as Lydian)

Bb C D Eb F G Ab Bb      W W H W W H W ( same as mixolydian)