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Topic: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?  (Read 2676 times)

Offline stevie

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what pieces did each legend use to develop their technique?

we know that for example, berezovsky's technique and ability is solidly grounded in the chopin and liszt etudes.

gould's technique was solidly based in bach, and it showed, stunningly fluid articulation, but not the greatest octaves in the world ;)

hamelin is of course unusual, his technique base is alkan?

libetta also is a curious case, his tehcnique is based in the godowksy studies, and czerny


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Offline stevie

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #1 on: May 21, 2006, 01:07:28 AM
also, freddy kempff and sergio fiorentino's tehcnique are based in the 2 primary etude sets - chopin and liszt.

cziffra's tehcnique was also, to a degree....but id say primarily his tehcnique came out of improvising.

Offline mikey6

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #2 on: May 21, 2006, 02:23:32 AM
Liszt wrote his own ;D
Soomeons' published them.  my friend was playing through them and got severley sore hands after a few hours.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #3 on: May 21, 2006, 02:33:21 AM
As a technical base you would have to include: Chopin and Liszt Etudes, Bach 48 Preludes+Fugues.
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Offline Mozartian

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #4 on: May 21, 2006, 03:26:12 AM
If I remember correctly, Kapell did both Hanon and Dohnanyi... lol.

I bet Cziffra was put through the Dohnanyi exercises as well, Dohnanyi being his teacher and all.
[lau] 10:01 pm: like in 10/4 i think those little slurs everywhere are pointless for the music, but I understand if it was for improving technique

Offline rimv2

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #5 on: May 21, 2006, 05:17:51 AM
If I remember correctly, Kapell did both Hanon and Dohnanyi... lol.

I bet Cziffra was put through the Dohnanyi exercises as well, Dohnanyi being his teacher and all.

It could be the sole reason for his high tech finger tech.
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #6 on: May 21, 2006, 08:34:57 AM
also, freddy kempff and sergio fiorentino's tehcnique are based in the 2 primary etude sets - chopin and liszt.

Freddy Kempff is a LEGEND??
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Offline stevie

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #7 on: May 21, 2006, 11:40:45 AM
Freddy Kempff is a LEGEND??

yes!

and this question was posed for a number of reasons, out of curiosity, and more importantly to discuss the impact to the pianists technique throughout his life, the impact made byt the choice of repertoire he/she uses as his tehcnical base.

the chopin/liszt etudes is a VERY solid base, they cover most of the equipment you need necessary to tackle the romantic repertoire...
except perhaps godowsky, who revolutionized left hand technique.

as a steady diet, i would suggest the ideal technique base for pianists, would be the chopin and liszt etudes, plus a selection of godowsky etudes, particularly some left-hand-alone ones, to balance out your technique.

this should suit most piansits, but then of course, how will this prepare them for bach, mozart, and more advanced 20th century composers?

should these also be studied early on, or are the previously mentioned etudes enough to have a solid enough foundation to render them more accessible?

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #8 on: May 21, 2006, 05:17:06 PM

as a steady diet, i would suggest the ideal technique base for pianists, would be the chopin and liszt etudes, plus a selection of godowsky etudes, particularly some left-hand-alone ones, to balance out your technique.

this should suit most piansits, but then of course, how will this prepare them for bach, mozart, and more advanced 20th century composers?


Agreed, If you can play all of Chopin and Liszt Etudes you have got a rock to build a house on.

Godowsky should prepare you for Bach, or should Bach prepare you for Godowsky?

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Offline dnephi

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #9 on: May 21, 2006, 07:42:38 PM
Most of 20th century music just sounds ... plain bad, except for people like Rachmaninoff.
Liszt&Chopin etudes are rock solid, but as far as beautiful music goes, what is there that's more demanding than Rach 3 & LisztEtudes?  None really that i know of.  Enlighten me, if you know some things i don't.
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Offline emmdoubleew

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #10 on: May 21, 2006, 07:54:52 PM
Most of 20th century music just sounds ... plain bad, except for people like Rachmaninoff.

Respectfully disagree.

Quote
Liszt&Chopin etudes are rock solid, but as far as beautiful music goes, what is there that's more demanding than Rach 3 & LisztEtudes?  None really that i know of.  Enlighten me, if you know some things i don't.
Quote

I'm not completely knowledgable on this, but things like the Alkan and Godowsky piano works are absolutely beautiful yet incredibly difficult.

Offline dnephi

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #11 on: May 21, 2006, 08:06:51 PM
Respectfully disagree.

I'm not completely knowledgable on this, but things like the Alkan and Godowsky piano works are absolutely beautiful yet incredibly difficult.
Understood and acknowledge that some people like that kind of music.
Thanks for the tips on Godowky & Alkan, I will check them out.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline krittyot

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #12 on: May 22, 2006, 01:40:41 AM
Bach all the way.
To be is to do (I. Kant)
To do is to be (A. Sartre)
Do-be-do-be-do (F. Sinatra)
Yabba-Dabba-Doo! (F. Flinstone)

Offline da jake

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"The best discourse upon music is silence" - Schumann

Offline stevie

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #14 on: May 22, 2006, 07:13:03 AM
Concur.

this is a foolish opinion

bach develops linear playing, and contrapuntal voicing, and single note articulation...

but what else?

point is, if you play nothing but the chopin etudes for 5 years, you are better equipped to tackle bach's wtc than a pianist who plays nothing but bach's wtc for 5 years then attempts the chopin etudes.

simple as that, this bach BS, is just that - BS.

Offline dnephi

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #15 on: May 22, 2006, 12:08:45 PM
Stevie, that is certainly unjust.  Bach also develops independence of the fingers, a graceful touch, and if you play "Bach-Liszt" pieces, or Liszt arrangement of Bach pieces it develops other techniques as well  ;D.  Don't just insult Bach.  He is the Alpha of the pianoforte.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline stevie

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #16 on: May 22, 2006, 12:14:41 PM
all music develops independance of the fingers, and a graceful touch is required to execute much of chopin

Offline pianistimo

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #17 on: May 22, 2006, 01:24:40 PM
maybe bach give one a beginning idea of improvisation and how the masters thought about using chromatics with tonal music.  bach isn't that impressive to me unless i hear it on harpsichord or organ.  organ is best, imo.

if you hear a toccata or fugue on a good organ - you have to think about bach's genius for extemporizing in a church setting.  he was getting away with murder at the time.  now, it is just 'old hat' to think about doing that in church.

Offline krittyot

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #18 on: May 22, 2006, 04:59:35 PM
this is a foolish opinion

bach develops linear playing, and contrapuntal voicing, and single note articulation...

but what else?

point is, if you play nothing but the chopin etudes for 5 years, you are better equipped to tackle bach's wtc than a pianist who plays nothing but bach's wtc for 5 years then attempts the chopin etudes.

simple as that, this bach BS, is just that - BS.
What a load of BS you have here. Bach gives you the idea of independence of fingers and that, in turn, is very essential for playing Chopin. Your point is lame too. I'd rather spend time learning Bach's WTC for 5 years instead of learning Chopin etudes for 5 years if I can only choose one. You will be more equipped as a result.

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To do is to be (A. Sartre)
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Offline lisztisforkids

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #19 on: May 22, 2006, 06:24:34 PM

simple as that, this bach BS, is just that - BS.

Wow...
WTC= 'Bible of western music'
Schuman- "Make the WTC your daily bread'
Beethoven to kid Liszt- "Can you play me a Bach fuge?"
Chopin was said to have played nothing but Bach all day before his (few) recitals.
Liszt, respects da Bach.
Chopin lived off da Bach.
Every teacher in the universe prescribes Bach to their students...
All of romatic music is based on Mr. Bach, therefore...
MASTER BACH, MASTER ALL.
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #20 on: May 22, 2006, 06:28:17 PM
Wow...
WTC= 'Bible of western music'
Schuman- "Make the WTC your daily bread'
Beethoven to kid Liszt- "Can you play me a Bach fuge?"
Chopin was said to have played nothing but Bach all day before his (few) recitals.
Liszt, respects da Bach.
Chopin lived off da Bach.
Every teacher in the universe prescribes Bach to their students...
All of romatic music is based on Mr. Bach, therefore...
MASTER BACH, MASTER ALL.


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Offline lisztisforkids

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #21 on: May 22, 2006, 06:29:45 PM
Leschetizky - Play it if you must, but no good will come of it.

Leschetizky was a loser... I much rather listen to what Chopin says about Bach then him.
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Offline lisztisforkids

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #22 on: May 22, 2006, 06:31:50 PM
Chopin is a evolution or progression of Bach and Mozart...
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Offline stevie

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #23 on: May 23, 2006, 04:52:20 AM
What a load of BS you have here. Bach gives you the idea of independence of fingers and that, in turn, is very essential for playing Chopin. Your point is lame too. I'd rather spend time learning Bach's WTC for 5 years instead of learning Chopin etudes for 5 years if I can only choose one. You will be more equipped as a result.



........no

Wow...
WTC= 'Bible of western music'
Schuman- "Make the WTC your daily bread'
Beethoven to kid Liszt- "Can you play me a Bach fuge?"
Chopin was said to have played nothing but Bach all day before his (few) recitals.
Liszt, respects da Bach.
Chopin lived off da Bach.
Every teacher in the universe prescribes Bach to their students...
All of romatic music is based on Mr. Bach, therefore...
MASTER BACH, MASTER ALL.


not saying he isnt one of the greatest composers, i just dont see the pedagogic value in studying his works people rave about.

Offline henrah

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #24 on: May 23, 2006, 04:04:42 PM
Bach and Chopin each have their advantages over each other, thus they are in the same position. Bach trains you on finger independence, polyphony in each hand and evenness. Chopin trains you on everything else, but not necessarily what Bach trains you on. Sure, the Chopin etudes need finger independence, polyphony in each hand and evenness, but they don't train you in those areas, except polyphony in some pieces. They simply require them to be played well, but they are not needed to simply be played. Sure Bach is in the same position, not necessarily requiring them to simply be played, but every piece of music ever wrote doesn't either. A 5year old could play Bach and Chopin, but not necessarily with finger independence, evenness, and crazy octaves.

Basically, Bach is better than Chopin etudes for learning finger independence and evenness as they are more a requirement of his music than they are of Chopin's.
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline lisztisforkids

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #25 on: May 23, 2006, 04:24:11 PM
For the sake of Virtuosity however, I beleive that Chopin, and Liszt have the edge.
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Offline henrah

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #26 on: May 23, 2006, 04:39:48 PM
Yes, for virtuosity you can't get anything better. Except maybe if someone were to combine all 60 Hanon exercises into one exercise and play it at super lightening speed. But that would be boring to just listen to and would only serve to amaze the eyes.
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline lisztisforkids

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #27 on: May 23, 2006, 06:13:04 PM
Virtuosity is the house.... Bach is the foundation for the house...
we make God in mans image

Offline chromatickler

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #28 on: May 23, 2006, 07:02:38 PM
chopin etudes for finger tech
liszt/alkan etudes for wrist and arm tech
bach for sightreading

Offline dough_mouse

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #29 on: May 24, 2006, 02:17:44 AM
Well, im far from an expert, but it seems to me (since someone mentioned left-hand work) that one should have several Scriabin etudes to compliment the Liszt/Chopin set. And I think Rachmaninoff's etudes would also be a good idea because they are very beautiful, so they would both compliment your technique and give you musical satisfaction. Both the Scriabin and Rachmaninoff etudes (i think) usually have a greater range of interpretation than the Chopin and most of the Liszt etudes. Anyway, just my $0.02.
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Offline stevie

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Re: what are the technique-bases of the legendary virtuosos?
Reply #30 on: May 24, 2006, 01:37:16 PM
Basically, Bach is better than Chopin etudes for learning finger independence and evenness as they are more a requirement of his music than they are of Chopin's.
Henrah

that doesnt make sense, no bach piece is as demanding as the 10/2 in terms of finger independance and evenness.

the only thing i can see bach developing, is that in his works each note has more of a melodic meaning, whereas in many chopin etudes; notes are joined in sequence to give an arpeggiated contour and as such - each single note has less melodic importance.

but even so, the 10/4 in particular, by chopin, is very bach-like, and surely better for allround technique.

chopin etudes for finger tech
liszt/alkan etudes for wrist and arm tech
bach for sightreading

if 'chopin etudes' include some godowskys for LH finger tech thrown in, i agree.

 

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