Plays the piano like a flute player - help!

[greenway]

I am a relevatively new piano teacher and have a 12 year old student who is a Grade 4 flutist.  She failed her Grade 1 piano some years ago with a different teacher and now wants to pick up from where she left off.  However... she plays the piano with straight, pointed  fingers and her wrists below the keyboard.  She has no bridge shape.  She tries very, very hard to  remember to have a curved shape but as soon as there is any tension she reverts back to bad habits.

I have tried simple 5 finger exercises, slowly, legato, staccato but am beginning to wonder if we will ever win this battle.  Have also tried dozen a day exercises.  She is keen, enthusiastic and we really enjoy our lessons but this is a stumbling block and she lacks mobility around the keyboard.  Can anyone give me some advise.

Greensleeves

[kaiwin]

Intersting case 
The shape of the hand should not just be remembered, but must come naturally. Start her off with the basics, more likely scales first. Fix her wrists first. Try to correct her wrists as she plays with your own hands. Or you can go buy a stick  and correct her. Tell her that her hand should be shaped like she is holding a pineapple.
Good luck with your student!

[lostinidlewonder]

To help the fingers teach her the Chopin hand form:

RH: 1 on E,  2 on Gb, 3 on Ab, 4 on Bb, 5 on B
LH: 5 on F, 4 on Gb, 3 on Ab, 2 on Bb, 1 on C

Ask her to hold these notes down. Then ask her to slide her hand into the keyboard. If the black notes jarr into your palm then your hand is too low. You should always be able to slide into the piano and have these black notes under your palm. If the black notes are above your palm then you will find playing black notes very tough since you have to reach up for them instead of them being closer to your hand. It is also a good idea to play these notes up and down, with legato touch and stacatto, also accenuated touches and all over the keyboard.

With the chopin hand for you will find that the fingers are not errect and straight nor are they curved (like gripping a ball) it is a very natural form which changes as the hands increase in size, but young students should feel this grasp of black and whites notes or they will fall into traps like lowering wrists and keeping fingers too low or whatever.

[kriskicksass]

To help the fingers teach her the Chopin hand form:

RH: 1 on E,  2 on Gb, 3 on Ab, 4 on Bb, 5 on B
LH: 5 on F, 4 on Gb, 3 on Ab, 2 on Bb, 1 on C

Ask her to hold these notes down. Then ask her to slide her hand into the keyboard. If the black notes jarr into your palm then your hand is too low. You should always be able to slide into the piano and have these black notes under your palm. If the black notes are above your palm then you will find playing black notes very tough since you have to reach up for them instead of them being closer to your hand. It is also a good idea to play these notes up and down, with legato touch and stacatto, also accenuated touches and all over the keyboard.

With the chopin hand for you will find that the fingers are not errect and straight nor are they curved (like gripping a ball) it is a very natural form which changes as the hands increase in size, but young students should feel this grasp of black and whites notes or they will fall into traps like lowering wrists and keeping fingers too low or whatever.

Interesting ideas, but where did you hear about this "Chopin hand form"?

[greenway]

Thanks for the info about Chopin hand.  I shall definitely give it a go.  It makes so much sense.  Much appreciated. 

[leahcim]

Interesting ideas, but where did you hear about this "Chopin hand form"?

From a bloke in the pineapple shop

[letters]

if she is a flautist her hand should be curved over anyway! she mustbe one of those flautists that play with their fingers straight sticking over the keys... tut tut she should be playing her flute with the pads/ tips of her fingers, like you do the piano.

[thorn]

I'm a flautist, and played the piano in a similar way to what you describe when i first began... don't worry... we adapt to it in our own time 

[lostinidlewonder]

Interesting ideas, but where did you hear about this "Chopin hand form"?

In a master class with Roger Woodward.

[greenway]

Glad to hear that this problem should eventually correct itself. 

I am lucky in that I took up the flute myself just recently am hoping to be taking my Grade 5 at Christmas.  So I naturally play the flute keys with curved fingers and have even had my flute out and asked her to play it so I can see what she does.   Sounds like if she can play both instruments with a curved hand position she has won on both fronts.

Again thanks everyone

Greensleeves

[caperflutist]

I play the flute professionally and never had problems with hand position on piano. Maybe it helped that by the time I started playing piano I was 15 and already played on an open hole flute which requires good hand position ie curved

[bernhard]

From a bloke in the pineapple shop

I actually met the guy at the pineapple shop and he told me to look up

Eigeldinger: Chopin, Pianist and Teacher (Cambridge University Press).

Also have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2359.msg20442.html#msg20442
(Fingering placement on the keys)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2079.msg17335.html#msg17335
(Hand tension – not using fingers to play)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2507.msg21688.html#msg21688
(Round fingers – the role of fingers)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2814.msg24872.html#msg24872
(How a student’s physicality affects teaching – discussion on arm x fingers – moving from the centre: tantien and taichi – Seymour Fink gets discussed as well)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2809.msg25013.html#msg25013
(Body movement – piano playing and martial arts)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3726.msg33453.html#msg33453
(playing with curved fingers – worry less about movement and more about sound)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.