info needed

[donjuan]

hey, I'm doing a recital on June 10, and my teacher would like me to find some information on the pieces I play, which include:

Liszt: Transcendental Etude No. 1
         Sonetto 104 del Petrarca
         Ballade No. 2
         Consolation No. 2
         Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2
     
Rachmaninoff: Prelude Op. 23 No. 4

anything you can tell me about history or associated legends or stories
--> that would be most appreciated.

thanks,
donjuan

[amanfang]

For an "amatuerish" start, I start with allmusic.com.  It usually gives me a lot of stuff to springboard off of.

[thebitus]

DonJuan,
Alan Walker's book on Liszt (3 volumes - most school libraries have it) is a very pleasant reading. I had the honor of meeting him and hearing him at a festival earlier this year.
Check the books in your library on Rachmaninoff and Liszt, and look at the index of compositions. I'm sure you can find plenty of information there. If you have access to it, grovemusic.com is the best online tool for composer/works background info.
Most of the great teachers and pianists emphasize on being aquainted with the composer and the context of your piece even before you play it... Doing a little reading and research beforehand will help you understand the piece much better.
TheBitus

[worker]

I read a biography of Arrau while he was still alive.  It included interviews with him where he describes many pieces he played, several by Liszt.  The Ballade #2 was a description of a drowning. Can't remember any details though, sorry.  I'm sure your library would have a copy.

[Kassaa]

I read a biography of Arrau while he was still alive.  It included interviews with him where he describes many pieces he played, several by Liszt.  The Ballade #2 was a description of a drowning. Can't remember any details though, sorry.  I'm sure your library would have a copy.

According to Arrau or to Liszt? Is the ballade based on a poem?

[pianistimo]

only if you be nice to me.  * i mean no more of those 'blame your instrument' jokes.  btw, my piano really needs a $200. regulation job.  just mentioning ti because my instrument really does need help. 

anyhew...i'm starting the research.  now, if you are mean to me in the meantime - all research is off and i will eat cheerios for the next hour.

[pianistimo]

what immediately comes to mind is the knowledge of my previous teacher and his wife lousie billaud.  her site is www.nr.edu/billaud  u can get her e mail and ask for info.  it's sure to be interesting because prof. jean-paul billaud is a scholar of liszt and has taught many students those pieces.

being the mozart afficianado that i am - i only studied a few etudes with him - but he was taught by cortot.

my daughter wants to go on computer - but i found this list of sites that you could peruse if you want:  www.d-vista.com/OTHER/franzliszt.html#links

[Kassaa]

what immediately comes to mind is the knowledge of my previous teacher and his wife lousie billaud.  her site is www.nr.edu/billaud  u can get her e mail and ask for info.  it's sure to be interesting because prof. jean-paul billaud is a scholar of liszt and has taught many students those pieces.

being the mozart afficianado that i am - i only studied a few etudes with him - but he was taught by cortot.

my daughter wants to go on computer - but i found this list of sites that you could peruse if you want:  www.d-vista.com/OTHER/franzliszt.html#links

Thanks a lot!

[ronde_des_sylphes]

The 1st TE is very much in the nature of a practical, warm-up-your-hands before starting with the real meat type piece. I guess you understand this, as you're playing it first

The Petrarch sonnet was first written as a song, after which Liszt transcribed it for piano solo, in which form it is now known today. The original text reads:

"I find no peace, yet make no war;
I fear yet hope, I burn yet am ice;
I fly in the heavens, but lie on the earth;
I hold nothing, but embrace the whole world
One imprisons me, who neither frees nor holds me;
nor keeps me for herself, nor loosens the noose;
Love does not slay me, nor unshackle me;
Love wishes me not to live, but leaves me in torment.
I see without eyes, and have no tongue but cry,
I long to perish, yet I beg for aid;
I hate myself, but love another.
I feed on sadness, yet I weeping I laugh;
death and life repel me equally.
I am in this state, Woman, because of You."

(thanks to google)

Of course, at this period in his life, Liszt was travelling through Italy with Marie d'Agoult, and the Annees de Pelerinage (Italie) is very much his creative response to his encounters with Italian art.

The 2nd Ballade has had the legend of Hero and Leander attached to it (I have no idea whether this is apocryphal or not). If my memory serves me correctly, Sachaverell Sitwell wrote of the Ballades something along the lines of "Whilst Chopin's Ballades are about fine sensibilities, Liszt's are on a grander scale... armies and cities in flames". (I've no idea of the exact quote, but that was the gist of it).

The Consolations is a title taken from poems by Saint-Beuve according to one of my books on Liszt.

Hope that's useful.

[donjuan]

Thanks everyone for all the leads!  I also vaguely remember hearing something about Liszt's ballades being compared to Chopin's, with the armies and burning cities etc, so I'll find a definite source and probably use that.

I am also thinking about putting Petrarch's sonnet into the program, if I can make it not take up so much space..

I'm tired from work right now, but I'll put something together soon.  thanks again, and please keep it coming!

only if you be nice to me.  * i mean no more of those 'blame your instrument' jokes.  btw, my piano really needs a $200. regulation job.  just mentioning ti because my instrument really does need help. 

anyhew...i'm starting the research.  now, if you are mean to me in the meantime - all research is off and i will eat cheerios for the next hour.

*hug* you know, if I were you, I wouldn't help me for a second, so I'm so relieved you are a much better person than I am. 

[worker]

Kassaa--From "Conversations with Arrau" by Joseph Horowitz, starting on page 142:

JH/ the B-minor Ballade...you apply the story of Hero and Leander.

CA/ It was well known in Liszt's circle. As far as I can remember, the music follows the original myth.  Leander swam the Hellespont to visit Hero every night, and swam back the next morning.  In the music you can actually hear that it becomes more difficult each time.  The fourth night he drowns.  Then the very last pages are a transfiguration.

JH/ So the first two pages, with the rising and falling chromatic scale in the left hand, represent the first time Leander swims the Hellespont.

CA/ This first time nothing happens, really.  It's not a stormy sea---yet.  Then you have Hero's theme. (ms. 24)
       The music for the second night (ms. 36) should be played in a stormier way, and the right-hand theme should be more threatening. 
       The third night (ms. 70), a terrific storm begins.  These of course are big waves; they must not sound like an exercise in broken octaves. (ms. 96)
       But Leander still manages to reach the other side, gasping for breath.  They say Wagner took the love theme here (ms. 135) for Tristan.
       Anyway, Hero comforts Leander, caressing him, and realizing how close she came to losing him.  Then there is the fourth night, and the biggest storm (ms. 162).  This is the final struggle. (ms. 207)
       Leander is absolutely desperate.  And this is where he drowns (ms. 214).  In this appassionato section section (ms. 225) the love theme also represents Hero's anxiety, or sadness---subconsciously she probably senses that Leander is dead.  Later, there are funeral bells. (ms. 237, in the bass?)
        Here Hero's theme must be played in a completely different way--disembodied.  Now, perhaps, she consciously realizes what has happened.  And then comes the transfiguration--the Verklarung. (ms. 254)
        This must be really sensuous.  But it must have a quality of remembrance.

This interview goes on and on. It's worth reading the whole thing.

[Kassaa]

Kassaa--From "Conversations with Arrau" by Joseph Horowitz, starting on page 142:

JH/ the B-minor Ballade...you apply the story of Hero and Leander.

CA/ It was well known in Liszt's circle. As far as I can remember, the music follows the original myth.  Leander swam the Hellespont to visit Hero every night, and swam back the next morning.  In the music you can actually hear that it becomes more difficult each time.  The fourth night he drowns.  Then the very last pages are a transfiguration.

JH/ So the first two pages, with the rising and falling chromatic scale in the left hand, represent the first time Leander swims the Hellespont.

CA/ This first time nothing happens, really.  It's not a stormy sea---yet.  Then you have Hero's theme. (ms. 24)
       The music for the second night (ms. 36) should be played in a stormier way, and the right-hand theme should be more threatening. 
       The third night (ms. 70), a terrific storm begins.  These of course are big waves; they must not sound like an exercise in broken octaves. (ms. 96)
       But Leander still manages to reach the other side, gasping for breath.  They say Wagner took the love theme here (ms. 135) for Tristan.
       Anyway, Hero comforts Leander, caressing him, and realizing how close she came to losing him.  Then there is the fourth night, and the biggest storm (ms. 162).  This is the final struggle. (ms. 207)
       Leander is absolutely desperate.  And this is where he drowns (ms. 214).  In this appassionato section section (ms. 225) the love theme also represents Hero's anxiety, or sadness---subconsciously she probably senses that Leander is dead.  Later, there are funeral bells. (ms. 237, in the bass?)
        Here Hero's theme must be played in a completely different way--disembodied.  Now, perhaps, she consciously realizes what has happened.  And then comes the transfiguration--the Verklarung. (ms. 254)
        This must be really sensuous.  But it must have a quality of remembrance.

This interview goes on and on. It's worth reading the whole thing.

Thanks a bunch! The piece makes so much more sense now I know the story it was based on. I always thought it was about a war or something ^^.

[donjuan]

Thanks a bunch! The piece makes so much more sense now I know the story it was based on. I always thought it was about a war or something ^^.

interesting to hear the story, but according to here,

https://www.carnegiehall.org/textSite/box_office/events/evt_5495.html

Liszt didnt say anything about basing it on any story when he published the music.  He also didnt correlate any legend or story to B-minor sonata.  All of this is just interpretation by people who listen.  If Liszt had wanted us to know he based his music on something, he would have left a sidenote or an obvious hint (like how Tchaikovsky puts the french national anthem into his 1812 overture, not to mention naming it "1812 overture" -->Tchaikovsky is so less mysterious than Liszt; he told us right up front what he was thinking of - the rise and fall of Napoleon.)

Applying this story of Hero and Leander to the Ballade is kind of like how historians and musicologists relate themes of fate to beethoven's 5th symphony, but Beethoven himself never said anything about it.  Who knows what Beethoven was thinking; a 4 note motif definitely, but I am always skeptical about interpretation done by people other than the composer... I guess that's why I hate english class so much.

[pianistimo]

you're both very welcome.  kassa, i'm not sure which helped you the most.  will look for more info tommorrow, don juan. 

[Kassaa]

interesting to hear the story, but according to here,

https://www.carnegiehall.org/textSite/box_office/events/evt_5495.html

Liszt didnt say anything about basing it on any story when he published the music.  He also didnt correlate any legend or story to B-minor sonata.  All of this is just interpretation by people who listen.  If Liszt had wanted us to know he based his music on something, he would have left a sidenote or an obvious hint (like how Tchaikovsky puts the french national anthem into his 1812 overture, not to mention naming it "1812 overture" -->Tchaikovsky is so less mysterious than Liszt; he told us right up front what he was thinking of - the rise and fall of Napoleon.)

Applying this story of Hero and Leander to the Ballade is kind of like how historians and musicologists relate themes of fate to beethoven's 5th symphony, but Beethoven himself never said anything about it.  Who knows what Beethoven was thinking; a 4 note motif definitely, but I am always skeptical about interpretation done by people other than the composer... I guess that's why I hate english class so much.

That might be, but he could have told about the story to his students, who could have told it to their own students. (Arrau was taught by Martin Krause, Martin Krause was taught by Liszt himself.) And that seems like a pretty reliable source.

[pianistimo]

all of these messages are most insightful.  after all, you did ask for 'any legends associated.'  alfred einstein, in his book 'music in the romantic era' says this (on page 209 and going from there) a quite different position with regard to virtuosity was taken by franz liszt...in his piano works are found technical ideas which were not only surprising in his own time but are still so today.  like paganini with his violin, liszt drew from the piano possibilties of sound that no one before had even imagined.  his art, however, consisted not merely of the transcription o f the techical possibilities of the violin - or of any other instrument - to the piano.  it consisted not merely of the passages in octaves and tenths, the chromatic chord effects, the technique of leaps, the crossing of hands, the chains of trills, the arpeggios, the mutitudinous differentiations in dividing up of cantilena (song) and ornament.  all these technical features brand liszt as an innovator--to be sure, a romantic innovator.  but, his art also consisted of a new techique of invention, especially in the harmony and in the recasting of motives.'

the book goes on to explain the idea of using 'impressions' from poetry if not the entirety of a poem as inspiration.  (page 210) 'but they are impressions transmitted by literary ideas.  even before liszt finally renounced his career as virtuoso, he retired from his triumphal tours to plunge himself into nature, always in 'romantic' regions - on the rhine, in switzerland, in italy.  but whatever he saw, he always saw it through the glasses of his reading.  thus there came into existence his album d' voyageur, his 'fantasie romantique sur deux meloies suisses, and his 'annees de pelerinage, in part a working of that 'album of a traveler.'  one piece in it is called 'vallee d'obermann':  there liszt does not see the swiss valley itself, but he sees it in the light of a sentimental novel by etienne jean de senancour, and to make this piece understood - the original edition contains a long selection from this 'romantic' work.  in italy this musical journey becomes that of a highly cultured tourist, who lets his imagination burst into flames before raphael's 'sposalizio' in the brera gallery, before michelangelo's tomb of the medici (in which liszt strangely applies to the penseiroso the famous verse on the figure of the notte), in three sonnets thinks of the poet who sang of laura, and lets his feelings storm out 'after a reading of dante, 'fantasia quasi sonata.' 
 

[pianistimo]

ok.  on the sonetto 104 del petrarca - i found lang lang's program notes.  they seem quite good.  you can find them here:  www.carnegiehall.org/textSite/box_office/events/evt_5688.html   (they mirror what other people have said - but the poem is slightly different).

for the transcendental etudes:
https://today.answers.com/topic/tudes-d-ex-cution-transcendente-12-trancendental-etudes-for-piano-s-139-lw-a172

[pianistimo]

i get easily sidetracked.  i found an essay by alfred brendel, and although it may nto contain excerpts for the pieces you are working, it is interesting to read.

www.geocities.com/Vienna/2192/essays4.html

[donjuan]

thanks for the info, pp