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Topic: Ocean etude questions  (Read 4303 times)

Offline xinox

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Ocean etude questions
on: May 24, 2006, 10:53:07 AM
Hi all, I am new here I got some questions for those who can play chopin's Ocean etude..

1) when you started to play it what was your speed (after month of practicing my is 30bpm which is even slower than half.. is it good? What do you think will I ever learn it up to speed(80bpm)?
With only one hand I can play it 50bpm or even faster...

2) How many days (months) you practice to learn it well, and how many hours a day (cca)

3) Is it the best piano piece ever?? I surely think IT IS!

4) any tips?

Thank you! (and sory for bad english)


Speed: 45/80 <>
Bars: 22/83 <>
Performance: 1/10 <>

One day I'll wake up and play my perfect Ocean etude. That day I'll be simply...happy

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #1 on: May 24, 2006, 12:38:01 PM
Hi all, I am new here I got some questions for those who can play chopin's Ocean etude..

1) when you started to play it what was your speed (after month of practicing my is 30bpm which is even slower than half.. is it good? What do you think will I ever learn it up to speed(80bpm)?
With only one hand I can play it 50bpm or even faster...

2) How many days (months) you practice to learn it well, and how many hours a day (cca)

3) Is it the best piano piece ever?? I surely think IT IS!

4) any tips?

Thank you! (and sory for bad english)

It's my opinion with the Chopin etudes, that since they are basically the same mechaniacl things over and over, once you can figure out the first four bars you will know how to practice the rest of the piece.  I recommend working out those bars first and be patient, because the harmonies and structure of the piece is not hard to learn.  Meaning if you can patiently and thoroughly overcome the mechanics, the rest of the piece will come much easier.
For this piece I would recommend first and foremost an investigation into the polyphonic possibilities, of which there are several!  There are lots of things happening rhytmically and melodically between those low melodic notes.
I recommend playing the low melodic notes slowly and in extra good rhythm, and then adding the 'ocean' part with that rhythmic background.
I also recommend looking at one hand at a time, and playing one hand's line divided into two hands, so it is the ear that is making the decisions, and not questions about mechanics.
As far as mechanics are concerned, I think, and it is only my opinion, the only thing you need to think about is the elbows: they can move clockwise, or counterclockwise, and they are negotiating all the leaps and changes of position, not the fingers.

Walter Ramsey

Offline mike_lang

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #2 on: May 24, 2006, 01:38:20 PM
I advise this for all Chopin etudes: Cortot provides several useful exercises and some helpful commentary preceding each Chopin Etude in his edition, published by Salabert and distributed by Hal Leonard.  His notes to 25-12 are particularly good.

Additionally, I would suggest to practice it in rhythms, and as you are doing, of course, each hand and together.

Offline nicco

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #3 on: May 24, 2006, 02:34:49 PM
simply practicing it as chords worked pretty well for me  :)
"Without music, life would be a mistake." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline henrah

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #4 on: May 24, 2006, 02:43:09 PM
Yes, nicco has a great method of learning it. It is much like the 3rd mvt of the Moonlight sonata.

Using what C.Chang wrote in his 'Fundementals of Piano' online book, play each arpeggio at infinite speed i.e. as a chord. Focus on playing chord after chord at the required speed (actually faster would be better) and then glissando each chord and keep slowing it down to an eventual fast arppeggio.

It works wonders, give it a try!
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline nicco

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #5 on: May 24, 2006, 02:55:34 PM
Yes, nicco has a great method of learning it. It is much like the 3rd mvt of the Moonlight sonata.

Using what C.Chang wrote in his 'Fundementals of Piano' online book, play each arpeggio at infinite speed i.e. as a chord. Focus on playing chord after chord at the required speed (actually faster would be better) and then glissando each chord and keep slowing it down to an eventual fast arppeggio.

It works wonders, give it a try!
Henrah

So thats why it worked so well  ;D
"Without music, life would be a mistake." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline dnephi

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #6 on: May 24, 2006, 03:12:24 PM
So thats why it worked so well  ;D
No, blocking chords is as old as Mozart or older   ;).  Very useful for that kind of passagework.  Also, try rhythms (1,2), (1,2], and then do other things.  You can get some great speed and mobility in your fingers that way.  Then your mind will know what to do from doing it slowly, and your fingers will know from having done it fast.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline xinox

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #7 on: May 24, 2006, 04:55:12 PM
No, blocking chords is as old as Mozart or older   ;).  Very useful for that kind of passagework.  Also, try rhythms (1,2), (1,2], and then do other things.  You can get some great speed and mobility in your fingers that way.  Then your mind will know what to do from doing it slowly, and your fingers will know from having done it fast.

First, thanks to all!
But I dont understand some thisng, can you explain me what exactly means play "blocking chords"? quick horizontly moving hands and play all 3 notes in the same time??

And this rhytms (1,2), (1,2]? I dont get it, can you somehow explain what exactly you mean?  Thank you and sorry for stupid quostions...


Speed: 45/80 <>
Bars: 22/83 <>
Performance: 1/10 <>

One day I'll wake up and play my perfect Ocean etude. That day I'll be simply...happy

Offline henrah

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #8 on: May 24, 2006, 05:13:28 PM
Chord attack/blocking chords is as you say, playing all the notes at the same time as a chord. Play the chord for the same length of time as the you would the three notes at the final tempo. This way you are learning the horizontal arm hand movement, and only that. Once you can play the chords at speed, start glissanding them, i.e. roll them as quickly as possible, essentially slowing down from infinite speed (chord) to an incredibly fast speed (glissando/roll). Keep them at the same tempo as you had played the chords, so that once you are learning them as arppeggios you are learning them at the final tempo you want to play it at. As you start slowing them down, repeat one chord over and over, but still keeping to the same tempo. As the chord is the same in that passage, just at different octaves, you can repeat it and gain fluidity between it and itself, essentially between it and the next one. Repeat it at the same tempo and start slowing it down to such a speed that it is a repeating arppeggio. Keep repeating this until you are happy with the repetitions, then suddenly jump up to the next octave and do the same (keep repeating), concentrating on playing the one chord to the next just like you did during the repetitions. Keep the repetitions going so you can relax and concentrate on the next jump, whilst continuously playing the arppeggio.

If there's anything here you don't understand, I'll make a video to explain it.
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline xinox

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #9 on: May 24, 2006, 06:38:02 PM
If there's anything here you don't understand, I'll make a video to explain it.
Henrah

Well, I read couple of time what you write but not sure that I understand all of it..
I would realy like to si that video (I'm sure others would like to see it too), I can wait to start using you tehnic. It sounds powerfull:)
I'll be thankfull to you for the rest of my life (well I'll play this etude all my life:) )


Speed: 45/80 <>
Bars: 22/83 <>
Performance: 1/10 <>

One day I'll wake up and play my perfect Ocean etude. That day I'll be simply...happy

Offline dnephi

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #10 on: May 24, 2006, 06:51:55 PM
Rhythms, for a series of notes of same speed, are like this: PLay the first note fast, 2nd slow, then 3rd fast, then fourth slow, etc.  Do it again First note slow, 2nd note fast, 3rd note slow, etc.   "Blocking" is playing all the notes in an arpeggio in a chord at one time.  Good luck with it.  ;D
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #11 on: May 24, 2006, 06:57:15 PM
Rhythms, for a series of notes of same speed, are like this: PLay the first note fast, 2nd slow, then 3rd fast, then fourth slow, etc.  Do it again First note slow, 2nd note fast, 3rd note slow, etc.   "Blocking" is playing all the notes in an arpeggio in a chord at one time.  Good luck with it.  ;D

Please when practicing in "groups and rhythms" as I call it, take pains to make sure every note is melodic, and that the fast notes in between the held ones are not played badly.

Walter Ramsey

Offline dnephi

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #12 on: May 24, 2006, 07:30:55 PM
Please when practicing in "groups and rhythms" as I call it, take pains to make sure every note is melodic, and that the fast notes in between the held ones are not played badly.

Walter Ramsey

Important, thanks for pointing that out.  i have become a bit lax about that myself...  :-[
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline xinox

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #13 on: May 24, 2006, 07:34:20 PM
Rhythms, for a series of notes of same speed, are like this: PLay the first note fast, 2nd slow, then 3rd fast, then fourth slow, etc.  Do it again First note slow, 2nd note fast, 3rd note slow, etc.   "Blocking" is playing all the notes in an arpeggio in a chord at one time.  Good luck with it.  ;D

I think I am stupid or something but again dont understand :(
How do you mean 4 notes, isnt arpeggio only 3 notes??
Well I made midi reading your explanation, please listen to it and if it's not good can you correct it?
Thanks...


Speed: 45/80 <>
Bars: 22/83 <>
Performance: 1/10 <>

One day I'll wake up and play my perfect Ocean etude. That day I'll be simply...happy

Offline henrah

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #14 on: May 25, 2006, 06:59:57 PM
Ooo, almost forgot about this. Sorry xinox, I'll get to the video right away. This has actually inspired me to learn 25/12 as, through explaining to you how to learn it, I realised that I can do the same! Lol how silly of me...


Give me a couple of minutes,
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline xinox

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #15 on: May 25, 2006, 08:46:54 PM
Ooo, almost forgot about this. Sorry xinox, I'll get to the video right away. This has actually inspired me to learn 25/12 as, through explaining to you how to learn it, I realised that I can do the same! Lol how silly of me...


Give me a couple of minutes,
Henrah

I thouht too that you forgot me:)
Thanks, I cant wait to see that video and start learning:))
And wish you luck with this piece, maybe for 3-4 months we can post our performace of this piece and compare it:)


Speed: 45/80 <>
Bars: 22/83 <>
Performance: 1/10 <>

One day I'll wake up and play my perfect Ocean etude. That day I'll be simply...happy

Offline henrah

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #16 on: May 25, 2006, 09:09:51 PM
And wish you luck with this piece, maybe for 3-4 months we can post our performace of this piece and compare it :)

Heh, that's a possibility. But I'll have to see how motivated I get for this etude :)


Aaaaaaaand.... here is the video! I hope you understand what I mean; and I apologise for the wrong D-A-D part at the end lol, I guess that's the next part I should learn on ;)
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline dnephi

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #17 on: May 25, 2006, 10:33:35 PM
I saw your MIDI file, and yes, that's the idea.  There is a similar exercise for becoming more legato.
For us musicians, the music of Beethoven is the pillar of fire and cloud of mist which guided the Israelites through the desert.  (Roughly quoted, Franz Liszt.)

Offline henrah

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #18 on: May 25, 2006, 10:51:07 PM
I saw your MIDI file, and yes, that's the idea. There is a similar exercise for becoming more legato.

I describe it as a dotted-quaver semi-quaver rhythm; and it's good because it's slow enough to allow you to play the notes, and fast enough for your brain to absorb the speed between the notes. It's annoying, though, that you have to be painstakingly accurate.
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline xinox

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #19 on: May 25, 2006, 11:50:49 PM
Heh, that's a possibility. But I'll have to see how motivated I get for this etude :)
How not to be motivated with such a beautifull piece? :)
You have to hear Pollini version of it. it is so beautifull that you cant stop till you learned it
If you dont have it you can pvt me...
Aaaaaaaand.... here is the video! I hope you understand what I mean; and I apologise for the wrong D-A-D part at the end lol, I guess that's the next part I should learn on ;)

This video rocks!!!! everyone who are learning 25/12 must have it!!
O man, you can play it up to full speed, I wish I could do the same :(
It is very usefull. Without watching this I would do it wrong.. And yes, you motivated me even more with this..
funny I put my laptop next to piano and try to do all that you did (my family think I am so wierd:)  )
I got more questoins:
1) So I have to practice this for every chord(arpeggio)? <- this is retoric:)
2) you learned this first bar up to speed in only one day? :o This is amazing (at least for me)!!
3) Can you do the same with left hand or little bit harder? and with hands together? (just wondering)
4) You are the man (  :) )

Thanks again to all especialy to YOU. You folks helped me to practice it right way.. Without this forum I would do more harm to me than good...

I saw your MIDI file, and yes, that's the idea. There is a similar exercise for becoming more legato.
So spit it out:)  I am so motivated with this etude that I want it ALL that could help me mastering it :)


Speed: 45/80 <>
Bars: 22/83 <>
Performance: 1/10 <>

One day I'll wake up and play my perfect Ocean etude. That day I'll be simply...happy

Offline henrah

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #20 on: May 26, 2006, 12:22:54 AM
How not to be motivated with such a beautifull piece? :)

Yeah it is pretty hard to not be motivated lol :D

It is very usefull. Without watching this I would do it wrong.. And yes, you motivated me even more with this.

I'm glad I did! It feels good that I did :)

I got more questoins:
1) So I have to practice this for every chord(arpeggio)? <- this is retoric:)
2) you learned this first bar up to speed in only one day? :o This is amazing (at least for me)!!
3) Can you do the same with left hand or little bit harder? and with hands together? (just wondering)
4) You are the man ( :) )

1) LOL guess I don't have to answer it then eheh ;)

2) Well I tinkered around with it a couple of weeks back, but hardly any at all. Only the first 6bars, and only the RH. I already have the technique of playing fast arppeggios, I just need to get the accuracy to hit the right notes lol :P The technique is fairly simple: just a roll of the hand. You can aquire it through the slow down from infinite speed (chord attack) which I showed during the video. It was simply a matter of gaining the accuracy to play it at that speed, which came through the jumping inbetween the chords. I hope it comes as easily to you my friend ;)

3) I only just looked at the LH today, so no I can't play the LH or hands together.

4) LOL I'm glad you think so, as otherwise I would be the woman haha 8) But thanks for the great compliment ;D


I hope you progress well!!
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline xinox

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #21 on: May 26, 2006, 08:11:09 PM
<CUT>

I hope you progress well!!
Henrah

Thank you once again, I am sure this time next year I'll play this etude very well :)
Ok, enough computer, I'm going to practice...


Speed: 45/80 <>
Bars: 22/83 <>
Performance: 1/10 <>

One day I'll wake up and play my perfect Ocean etude. That day I'll be simply...happy

Offline will

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #22 on: May 27, 2006, 05:30:38 AM
Aaaaaaaand.... here is the video! I hope you understand what I mean; and I apologise for the wrong D-A-D part at the end lol, I guess that's the next part I should learn on ;)
It's very easy to overlook your wrong notes - you're not on stage at the moment!
Thank you for taking the time to make the video. The quality of the picture and sound is good as is your demonstrations and position of the camera. Cheers.
 

Offline henrah

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #23 on: May 27, 2006, 09:29:26 AM
You're welcome Will! It took longer to position the camera than it did to record it! ehehe 8)

I hope many others learn from this video too!

Glad to be of help,
Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline henrah

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #24 on: May 27, 2006, 12:08:20 PM
I have some more info on learning 25/12.

When doing the chord leaps to gain accuracy, make sure that they are at the intended rhythm, i.e. following the arppeggios. Basically count the notes for each chord, and move it in time with them. This would mean counting '1,2,3' for the first chord as there are 3 notes, '1,2,3' for the next chord as it also has 3 notes, then '1,2,3,4,5' for the top chord because it has 5 notes, then '1,2,3' again for the chord after it, then only '1,2' for the final chord before changing to the next bar. This would mean that when you play it as an arppeggio, you are playing it with the exact leaps you played before.

[listen-to-walter]
Another bit of advice is that when you are practicing the leaping chords, leap from the fifth finger if going up and leap from the thumb if going down. Basically, when you lift off and jump to the next chord, instead of lifting off as a chord, push off with the finger closest to the next arppeggio. This will accentuate the 'roll' of the arppeggio and prepare you better for leaping inbetween arppeggios. You can practice this motion by pretending to play a chord on your desk, then roll it to the side and push off with that finger, then level out your hand and strike your desk a bit further away. When leaping to the right, push off of your fifth finger, and when leaping to the left push off of your thumb (as your RH, reverse for your LH obviously). Hopefully you will get what I mean, and it should help with playing the arppeggios smoothly.
[/listen-to-walter]

Henrah
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline pianowelsh

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #25 on: May 27, 2006, 01:49:35 PM
I consider it vital to alternate playing beat 1 - beat 1 of next bar and also starting at the top (crest ) of the arpeggio, sweeping down and upto the top again.  So often the end part (bottom) is inaccruate and muddy because it gets less attention. starting at the top the downward part is the first part you play and consequently your ear pays it most attention and accuracy is obtainable.  I highly recommend this method ofpractising in tandem with all your other suggestions.

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #26 on: May 27, 2006, 02:57:49 PM
I have some more info on learning 25/12.

When doing the chord leaps to gain accuracy, make sure that they are at the intended rhythm, i.e. following the arppeggios. Basically count the notes for each chord, and move it in time with them. This would mean counting '1,2,3' for the first chord as there are 3 notes, '1,2,3' for the next chord as it also has 3 notes, then '1,2,3,4,5' for the top chord because it has 5 notes, then '1,2,3' again for the chord after it, then only '1,2' for the final chord before changing to the next bar. This would mean that when you play it as an arppeggio, you are playing it with the exact leaps you played before.

Another bit of advice is that when you are practicing the leaping chords, leap from the fifth finger if going up and leap from the thumb if going down. Basically, when you lift off and jump to the next chord, instead of lifting off as a chord, push off with the finger closest to the next arppeggio. This will accentuate the 'roll' of the arppeggio and prepare you better for leaping inbetween arppeggios. You can practice this motion by pretending to play a chord on your desk, then roll it to the side and push off with that finger, then level out your hand and strike your desk a bit further away. When leaping to the right, push off of your fifth finger, and when leaping to the left push off of your thumb (as your RH, reverse for your LH obviously). Hopefully you will get what I mean, and it should help with playing the arppeggios smoothly.
Henrah

I jst want to add my own opinion here, although maybe you have tried this and it has worked (but I don't think you play the whole piece) but the last paragraph about leaping from a "finger" seems very suspect to me. 

First of all focussing so intently on a detail so tiny is dangerous in any case, but in this particular case I think it is bad because if you are concentrating on this one finger sticking there, it is probably not going to be accurate for the next chord.  Actually the whole hand has to move as one, and the movement comes from the elbow.

In my opinion, what is important here is the elbow: it can move clockwise, or it can move counterclockwise, depending which direction on the keyboard you are going.  If your hand is "loose", free of excess tension, the elbow will carry the entire hand, and the weight from your torso will direct the fingers towards the notes, and the fingers aiming properly will hit the notes.  I feel it is not more complicated than that.

Although such suggestions as the one quoted above may work in the short term, or at least give a feeling of working, I believe they are only short term suggestions, or even just preliminary ways to get you feeling the piece out.

Walter Ramsey


Offline henrah

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #27 on: May 27, 2006, 03:01:34 PM
Walter, you have just explained what I meant to explain!! Thankyou for doing so, I thought my explanation might come across in the wrong way. What I was trying to describe, after reading through what I wrote, wasn't exactly a 'push' off of the finger; but the essence of it describes the motion of your hand that it goes through, the 'roll of the elbow' which carries the hand whilst the hand stays relaxed.

All in all, only you yourself can figure out the motions needed and how they work for you, so it's very hard to describe the motions and what it feels like, especially the weightlessness. You can only know what it feels like from experiencing.

Anyway, you did a much better job at describing it than me, so thankyou! Now everyone listen to Walter's advice and not mine! ;D
Henrah


EDIT: I also found out that collapsing your hand slightly between each chord leap is a lot better than keeping it tense and in the same position, as you are less likely to play the arppeggio from a hand that stays in the exact same position. Also the slight collapse (I don't really know if I should describe it this way, so look over this please Walter) helps in relaxing the hand as you're not keeping it tense from the arppeggio before to ensure accuracy.
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /

Offline henrah

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Re: Ocean etude questions
Reply #28 on: May 27, 2006, 03:09:27 PM
First of all focussing so intently on a detail so tiny is dangerous in any case, but in this particular case I think it is bad because if you are concentrating on this one finger sticking there, it is probably not going to be accurate for the next chord. Actually the whole hand has to move as one, and the movement comes from the elbow.

Again this is what I was trying to describing, but I was focusing on the finger because it was what stuck out to me when I was doing the motion. I don't concentrate on that finger solely because, as you said, it probably won't be accurate for the next chord. I just noticed that the hand was leaving on the side of that finger, so I was using it to try and describe the motion. So thanks for clearing that up - I could've got a lot of people focusing on the wrong thing!
Currently learning:<br />Liszt- Consolation No.3<br />J.W.Hässler- Sonata No.6 in C, 2nd mvt<br />Glière- No.10 from 12 Esquisses, Op.47<br />Saint-Saens- VII Aquarium<br />Mozart- Fantasie KV397<br /
 

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