Making students cry.

[elisianna]

  I am a very new teacher.  But just this week I did something a new teacher probably should never do!  I made one of my students cry!

  He's only 5 years old, so it's understandable why he would never practice.  But when I told him he DOES need to practice more (than right before lessons every week...) he started making the most ridiculous excuses like, "My mom makes me clean all the time."
"How many hours a day are you cleaning?"
"20."
When I threatened to tell his mom that he says he cleans for that long he told me he was lying.  Because he hadn't practiced all week I made him practice in the lesson.  He was doing a lot of repetition and was annoyed and asked why he can't just wait to get home to do that. (umm..)

When he left I asked him if he promised to practice for the next week.  He said yes.  He went over to him mom who had been waiting for him.  She asked how he did and I really had to answer.

"He says he has no time to practice." she gave him a puzzled look, "And that he cleans for 20 hours a day."  Then he started to cry.  To make matters worse I am really really not a sympathetic person at all so all I did was stand there.  I told her that all he needs to do is practice a little every day. (because he pretty much unlearns everything he learns).  I told her that when he was practicing in the lesson he was getting better, but he needed to keep it up.

It's been stressing me out now though.  Because I really should have been more careful.  But I was both having a bad day, and I figured I was being way too nice and lenient with the kids. (I always wanted them to leave happy!).  I went a little overboard, but pretty much just because he was lying. (most of the other kids just say "I was playing outside so I didn't practice."

Just the day before my teacher was telling me that he was going to make me a mean piano teacher. (like he apparently is.) he ALWAYS sends students out of the lessons early and ALWAYS make them cry, but with the TON of experience he has, he kinda has the right.  I'm the same way he is, but I really shouldn't be yet.

The mom of the kid didn't seem to be mad that he was crying. She just told him not to be depressed.  But this couldn't come at a worse time (reregistration for next season....).  I mean, if I dropped him I'd probably be happy and relieved, but that wouldn't look good as I just started as a teacher. 

Has anybody here made students cry? (I'd like to think so...) and does it usually make them quit?  How doomed do you think I am?  (sorry this ended up being so long...) I try to imagine some of the teachers I know and I can't see them ever making their students cry, so I just was wondering how common it REALLY is.

[kitty on the keys]

Don't worry yourself over it!!! I teach many young children--over 20 years. And I have found that the girls are the stronger student and when called to task  they are more honest and can take the consequences. The boys will cry at the moment something is challenging and you take them to task. This might stem from the fact that the are too coddled at home and if you dont do something---its ok. Nice message---dont like dont do it--responciblity does not matter. So you challenge them--they get flustered--they cry. You dont have to go out of your way to make a student cry. As you said, your teacher, would end a lesson early and make them cry, sorry, as an educator, that is just plain wrong.Fear and intimidation is not a way to teach or learn. Asuccessful teacher, will know how to explain a concept to a student in many ways so it will be learned. Children cannot be expected to learn the way---they are all different. You must figure out their learning stlye and then plan your teaching.

   Always communicate with the parent.

[Bob]

I don't know any five year olds that will be on the ball enough to practice daily.

I would find a fun piece or an easier piece for him maybe.   

An unhappy student, for any reason, can be a problem.  The parents won't bring him back if he doesn't like the lessons.

Be sure to get the parents involved.  They can make sure the child practices every day.  Teach the parents how to teach their kid. 

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I will provide an opinion in my dignity as a student. I would surely not like to cry during the lesson. If your student is crying that is a sign that you are doing something wrong. He is only 5 and he should not assign piano practicing to crying, that will only diminish his aptitude for playing and he will keep reticent about his progress. He should have mostly fun so far and a creative approach to playing that will help his associate practicing with joy. Perhaps you are applying too much pressure on him. So what if he hasn't practiced one week. Perhaps offer a reward for practicing a certain time every day for a week and have the mom keep track.

How long have you been teaching, because you said that you were a student not such a long while ago.

[kitty on the keys]

Debussy is very correct!!! this is a new activity for the child. the more you make it fun and look for all the games that are now out there for the young student you will have a ball teaching young kids. Sometimes i will schedule a young student after an advanced one so i can enjoy the games after teaching Bach and Mozart---teacher needs to have some fun too.

Kitty

[whynot]

I really liked all the suggestions of keeping it fun, making sure he likes the music etc.  The most helpful thing we can do for young beginners is to give them a really enjoyable experience in music. 

I would add that it doesn't sound to me as though you made him cry:  He made himself cry.  An adult is certainly capable of making a five-year-old cry, but it doesn't sound like that's what happened here.  If I understand, he didn't cry when you asked him to practice more (although, as others have suggested, 5-yr-olds aren't inclined to do this on their own-- this is normal), he cried when you told his mom he had lied to you.  I have sometimes reported such things to parents and sometimes not, it depends on the kid and whether I think I can handle it on my own.  It sounds a little manipulative on his part, and possibly some genuine panic at being caught lying, also.  Some kids get in a lot of trouble for that.  I don't think crying once in a lesson is a big problem, or that you were mean to him.  Possibly your expectations would suit a child who's a little more mature, but you'll get a feel for that as you keep teaching.

Bernhard has written some really excellent scenerios for teaching beginners, how to break up the time, what to have them do with and without you etc.  I'm sure everything will be okay.  You might address it very briefly in the next lesson, start with how happy you are to see him and that things will be better today than last week, tell him you really want to help him have fun at the piano.  Five years isn't too little to have a genuine conversation, but I would keep that really short, and quickly move on to something very fun, and stay cheerful.  He seems to have quite an imagination!  He would probably enjoy making up his own songs, thereby using his creativity for good instead of evil.  Maybe his assignment could be (his parents would have to keep track of this) making up a new little song every day and record it for you.  Monday, play "thunder";  Tuesday, play "the dog chasing the ball"; Wednesday, "use all the black keys", etc.

Good luck!  Don't worry!   

[elisianna]

Thanks guys for all the suggestions!  I will try to make things more fun for him.  I've never been the kind of person to try and make things super fun for kids, I'm not one of those people who will give kids stickers when they do well (even though they seem to LOVE stickers.) because nobody really did that for me when I was a kid. 

It'll be a challenge for me, but I think that it will probably make me a better teacher because for now I mostly teach beginners, and a few of them are in preschool.

I would just like to reply to debussy symbolism and say that it wasn't just this week that he hasn't practiced.  He has barely practiced since I started teaching him, it's not a one time thing, he does it ALL the time.

I know it'll be hard to a 5 year old to practice EVERY day, but at least more than he does now...

I've got very high expectations, I've got some very very smart and VERY well-behaved younger siblings.  They are all good at almost everything they try and certainly at music.   When I come across more average and more badly behaved kids than the ones I am always around, it's very hard to lower my expectations, but I've been trying.


Thanks again everybody =)

[ingagroznaya]

My 14 years old cried few weeks ago. And I mean REALLY cried. Mom walked in -- in shock.
Same mom cried on our recital 6 months ago. She was too stressed, because her child were too stressed. She was keep saying:" Aren't lessons supposed to be fun??? Aren't recitals supposed to be fun???".

 "Welcome" .

Expectations supposed to be set from the start. I should cut down on stickers. I never gave stickers to kids before. Expectations are very hard to raise over time.

[ingagroznaya]

  Has anybody here made students cry? (I'd like to think so...) and does it usually make them quit?  How doomed do you think I am?  (sorry this ended up being so long...) I try to imagine some of the teachers I know and I can't see them ever making their students cry, so I just was wondering how common it REALLY is.

Crying is relatively common. It does not usually makes them quit. They'll most likely quit at some point because "it is not working out" ( he is not practicing ) -- You are frustrated, he can't play anything. As a result of this Union - YOU ARE A BAD TEACHER.  Your only solution to this is to put your most serious face on and have a short talk with a parent :" If your child is not going to practice, there is no reason to take lessons. He will not learn anything. If this will continues, I would have to discontinue lessons". That's it.

The problem is not that your lessons "aren't fun enough". Making your lessons more fun will not make him practice.

[lagin]

Don't worry about it.  BUT also, don't idolize your teachers "tough" style.  I have just left my teacher on very shaky terms, and my parents are less than pleased with her, because this year she decided to be "tough" and now I have a nice new supportive teacher.  Piano is not suppost to be do or die (and no, I'm not a hobby player, and I intend to get my bmus).  Piano IS fun.  Let's keep it that way, stickers and all for the kids! 

Don't get me wrong.  I don't think you were being too hard on him since his mom asked you how it went.  BUT just don't go overboard on the "tough/strict" means "good."  And next time, take the parent aside to express your concerns.  It isn't too professional to do it in front of the child, but heigh ho, that's how we learn.

[ingagroznaya]

Anyone else here who has already have "bmus" thinks piano is not do or die? Holar. Which school did you go to? I want to send there some of my students who dreams too much. Feel free to recommend.

How many of you had a nice teacher and play classical music well?

Lagin, it's not about being "nice" or not. Child who post here will never refer to him self as a child. "A student" might be?
It is only professional to have a serious conversation with the parent in question at this time. No one talking about going overboard. Supportive is good. Talking to a parent is supportive. Chances are this parent do not play. Nice is not going to take you far. Especially not in your pre-college years. Your teacher did not just decide to be tough on you. It was a plan, I guess... Sounds like she/he was your teacher for a while. Probably all you know you have learnt from her/him. If this is just another teacher you are switching recently, you have no say. Go post your "intellectual" thought on "What if?" thread. It's highly regarded by m1469. Most people who respond are about 12. Which part of PRACTICING activities you do not understand or can't relate to, Lagin? Your unpleased parents? Give this young teacher a rest! Do NOT bully.

[ingagroznaya]

About 30 years ago I was in a major hysterics after... another major high of being accepted to my first music school - I have just learnt that a teacher, who'll be teaching me is someone I know! And she is a Monster! She used to substitute in kindergarten which I went to. She was mean. Really mean. She did not play much games with us, did not make faces, she was no fun! Everyone knew she was a kindergarten nightmare ( clearly, being a piano teacher, she had no idea what she was doing with a group of 5 years olds ).

I cried so hard, being 6... So hard, my mother panicked. My mom, who never thought I'd stick with it to begin with, just bought me a new piano. Uh, all the pressure. New piano cost a lot. We went to talk to a director, seeking change... Change did not took place and we were told:" she is the best teacher in the school".

I was her most crying student. For some years... After 4-5 years or so, I quit....It lasted a week.

When I was young, she'd yell at me :" How many times you played this piece?" We had our lessons twice per week. I still remember saying:" Three...". She'd yell back:" It should be "Thirty-three!" (Three hundred echoed in my child's mind. 33???). As a very small child, I knew some serious adjustments should be made, because "three was a lie".

As her own career progressed ( she moved up to a "better" school ), I followed her and was miraculously accepted.

I had so many teachers after her, but she was Magic. My grandma used to be so fearful of her. My dearest Grandma expired many years ago.... I wish I could tell her how this "monster" changed my life.

[ingagroznaya]

Being a small child and coming from a family where no one played, I had a lot of other piano tutors hired to HELP me with what ever drama I had going on. The interesting thing is ... even after two years of piano lessons with this teacher, I could tell - most of them are too nice. They couldn't care less. They want to make some extra money, that was it.

I still remember thinking :" What? You're just going to sit here? Without making much noise? Am I so good? Are you so nice, that you can not get out of your chair to blow me off mine?"

Children seek challenge. Nice. Don't even get me started on "nice"! If you took piano for 4-5 years and your teacher is STILL nice to you - Get Another Teacher! You are learning NONE.
.
From what I now understand: some are kindergarten teachers, some teach piano. Don't take me wrong. I still teach kindergarten who is 15. There is always hope.

On my very first interview I make it clear that music is fun, but there is A LOT of work involved.
I have about 6 pre-schoolers this year. Two did not understand how much practicing it takes TO MAKE IT fun. I speak clearly to parents, that I don't teach music appreciation class. Sometimes I re-direct my 60 years old students to take those instead, if they are bored with life and seeking FUN. I teach piano.

I have a huge improvements after I spoke to not so understanding parents of those two kids who lacked practicing. After I've reminded them how much my lessons cost and they can be fired ( I charge very reasonably, I feel ), they sure do work respectful to my charges and we all do have FUN.

If you are a young teacher, please do not feel intimidated by parents or teaching style in your community. You are a professional. Piano lessons aren't swimming lessons. You do not teach how to play piano or to swim. You guide. What ever is your language, Use it. I know there is a lot of mistakes in mine.

[stevehopwood]

elisianna, the little toad wasn't crying because of your teaching - he was crying because a fib had been found out. You won't get very far with this one unless you can convince his mother of the need to practise, so try not to beat yourself up about it.

I find all this discussion about being a 'mean', 'tough' teacher is disheartening and misguided. The sad few who appear to have enjoyed being mistreated in their lessons might feel differently if their teaching had been kinder.

It really is best not to go down the 'tough' route. Kids respond best to kindness and encouragement. It is perfectly possible to teach with rigour in a style that is a pleasure for both child and teacher. I know - I have been doing this for more than 30 years.

Upset your pupils and all you get are upset pupils. Upset them sufficiently and they will leave. You will then have failed both as a teacher and businesswoman.

Steve 

[chocolatedog]

I agree with Steve - lessons should be fun, not necessarily all games, but we have fun in the lessons. If what it takes is a silly voice to capture the attention of an 8year old boy, then I'm an expert in silly voices..... :lol: I even dance round the room to illustrate minuets etc. And think of silly words and phrases to help pupils understand how certain jazzy rhythms are played. I'm afraid I don't agree with "nice=ineffective". Maybe I don't push my pupils as much as I could, but my aim in teaching is not to turn out super pianists, but to turn out people who whatever they end up doing in life, will sit down at a piano and be able to play something - whether improvised or remembered from childhood lessons. (Or even be able to pick up a book of piano music and have a fair old bash at sight-reading it to see 'how it goes'!) And yes, I can be tougher when I want to be, but I still believe in enjoyment in lessons. Especially with younger ones! I never yell at my pupils - I may get annoyed periodically but I don't yell. I don't think pupils should be scared of their teachers..........   

[lagin]

Anyone else here who has already have "bmus" thinks piano is not do or die? Holar. Which school did you go to? I want to send there some of my students who dreams too much. Feel free to recommend.

How many of you had a nice teacher and play classical music well?

Lagin, it's not about being "nice" or not. Child who post here will never refer to him self as a child. "A student" might be?
It is only professional to have a serious conversation with the parent in question at this time. No one talking about going overboard. Supportive is good. Talking to a parent is supportive. Chances are this parent do not play. Nice is not going to take you far. Especially not in your pre-college years. Your teacher did not just decide to be tough on you. It was a plan, I guess... Sounds like she/he was your teacher for a while. Probably all you know you have learnt from her/him. If this is just another teacher you are switching recently, you have no say. Go post your "intellectual" thought on "What if?" thread. It's highly regarded by m1469. Most people who respond are about 12. Which part of PRACTICING activities you do not understand or can't relate to, Lagin? Your unpleased parents? Give this young teacher a rest! Do NOT bully.

I'm going to answer this in point form to keep from rambling.

--I am not bullying, and happen to be a piano teacher myself.  I was speaking as one piano teacher to another. 

--While my teacher was still being "nice" I won numerous awards for piano (though I give God the glory for that - yes I'm "one of those" ), so you DO NOT need a "mean" or "strict" teacher to do well.  What you need, is a love and passion for music, and a capable piano teacher who has the knowledge to help you harness the necessary skills.

--I never said she should not talk to the parent.  I'm glad she did.  That is professional.  It is NOT professional, however, to do so IN FRONT of the child.  Ask any music teacher at our school, and they will tell you the same.  Like I said, this is how we learn.  I've messed up lots in my teaching career.

--I fully understand practicing issues.  I practice 40 hours a week (I'm not kidding), and my teacher never asked me to that either.  I do it because music is my passion.  And quitting lessons with that teacher was my decision, not my parents'.

--I do agree that usually the "mean" teachers get good results with the students that actually stick around and take it.  I, however, prefer to instill a love and passion for music in my students that will motivate them to practice, rather than a do or die attitude.  If they so decide to pursue music to the advanced levels, they will soon find that they need to practice hard and practice alot.  I do not need to drag them to that conclusion.  I need to keep it as enjoyable as possible, and keep the love of music alive in their hearts while they work to achieve those goals. 

--Yes, some students do need a "kick in the butt," for we live in a very lazy generation.  But not every child wants their bmus.  Some want to be doctors, or moms, or history teachers, ect, and just want to be able to enjoy music as a hobby.  So I use the "kick in the butt" approach as an exception, not as a rule.  And I will always speak to the parent and child about THEIR goals and expectations before I try to push mine on them.

--For example, I have one little girl, who is extremely talented, but does not put in the practice time.  She seldomly finishes a piece, and her progress is twice as slow as it could be.  I have phoned her mom and explained that I don't want to MAKE her finish a piece if she doesn't want to, and we can still learn and progress from learning bits of a variety of pieces.  I would, however, be willing to put my foot down and get "strict" if she would like me to, since she is paying for these lessons, but I was under the impression that this is just a hobby for them.  The mom was quite happy to "keep it fun" and let her little girl grow into a love for music rather than forcing it on her.  THEN I spoke to the child, and told them that if they wanted, I could put them into the next book, but they would be looking at about x amount of practice a day in order to progress and not feel frusterated with the harder pieces (which she is fully capable of learning).  She seemed eager to do so, and next fall we will give it a try.  This child has absolutely no ambitions of becoming a concert pianist.  She just wants to be able to play some Christmas carols and familiar tunes.  I will not turn her off of music entirely by turning "mean" on her.  I will work with her to help her achieve HER goals.

--Another example.  I have another little student almost the same age who absolutely LOVES piano.  She was at my house last night for a while because I had taken her to a recital in which I was playing a couple pieces.  As we waited for her dad to pick her up, she just wanted to listen to me play.  Over a half an hour later after I had exhausted all my current repertoire on top of what she had heard earlier that evening, she still wanted more!  I said, "would you like me to teach you a piece?"  And she nodded eagerly, and we had fun learning a little piece about a dragon until her dad arrived. 

I have been "mean" with neither of these girls.  THEIR love for music motivates them in respective degrees.  And their progress reflects that.  The second girl, due to personal situations, only has access to a piano every other week, and has flown past the older, first girl. 

--I frequently watch the amazingly talented proteges that some of the "strict, mean" teachers at our school teach.  Their playing is impecable, but they have no personalities at all!  Seriously.  They sit in their seats perfectly still, get up and play perfectly well, then leave perfectly quiet.  I would much rather have a kid get up, play not perfect, and leave with a smile on his face than the stoic progression of "little talents" we have around.  I mean, yes it's amazing to watch them, but it's sad in a way, too.  I wish they could be THAT good and look like they LOVE it at the same time. 

--I guess point form didn't stop rambling .  But that's my take on it all.  Fire away if you must, but I've said my piece.

[stevehopwood]

I'm going to answer this in point form to keep from rambling.

--I am not bullying, and happen to be a piano teacher myself.  I was speaking as one piano teacher to another. 

etc...........................

Good for you lagin. I hope you mean and tough teacher read and took note of all this.

Steve 

[el nino]

i almost cried yestarday when i played to my teacher the 3rd scherzo for the first time and did it by heart almost in tempo and she said like not a single word of praise

[lagin]

I know what that feels like.  It really discourages me from wanting to practice more because I think, "why bother?"  But if they would have been pleased for me, I would have wanted to please them more and work harder. 

But remember el nino, the answer to "why bother" is because YOU love it!  And I say great job because I'm sure an aweful lot of work went into memorizing that and bringing it close to tempo. 

I know when my teacher pulled a 180 and started acting all "mean" my parents continually encouraged me by reminding me, "Why do you play?" To which I would reply, "Because I love to."  And then they would say, "Yes, remember that.  You do not play for her.  Who cares what she thinks (not literally, but you get the idea), play for you not for her."

So I'm actually in a wierd way, thankful that my teacher did turn out the way she did because it taught me an important lesson about being a "people pleaser" or just being myself and enjoying it.  But now that the lesson is learned, I must say, I am way happier with my new, nice teacher, and am practing more than I ever have before!

Btw, that's for your comment Steve!

[emmdoubleew]

personally i whip my students.

[debussy symbolism]

Ingagroznaya, are you perhaps Russian, or were taught by a Russian teacher? Your childhood scenario perfectly fits in with the Russian atmosphere. My teacher is Russian and she naturally pushes everyone of the students, even those that do practice very little. She is very sedulous when it comes to my playing, because we work on every little detail until it is perfect. In my own opinion, there are different facets to the notion of a "tough" teacher. A good teacher(which I consider my teacher) goes to the limits, but knows about it. A potentate teacher that doesn't know the student's (mind, I say students, not child) feelings, is not a good teacher. This is just my own observation.

[gyzzzmo]

Maybe you hit him too often 

[debussy symbolism]

Maybe you hit him too often 

Inimical Russian teachers are known for their violent ways in teaching. All this builts up consternation in a student and he is more likely to get depressed. To assault a student is a no way situation.

[stevehopwood]

Inimical Russian teachers are known for their violent ways in teaching. All this builts up consternation in a student and he is more likely to get depressed. To assault a student is a no way situation.

I am pretty sure emmdoubleew and gyzzzmo are teasing, DS.

Steve 

[chocolatedog]

Nooooooooo  Really???

[debussy symbolism]

I am pretty sure emmdoubleew and gyzzzmo are teasing, DS.

Steve 

I know, I am just saying that traditional Russian teaching doesn't hesitate to use physical punishment as a teaching process. Some students inure to the punishment, however with pains.

[stevehopwood]

Nooooooooo  Really???

Now now, just because you are brutal and cruel with your lot........

[debussy symbolism]

Nooooooooo  Really???

Is that sarcasm? 

[stevehopwood]

I know, I am just saying that traditional Russian teaching doesn't hesitate to use physical punishment as a teaching process. Some students inure to the punishment, however with pains.

Crikey. They would end up in prison if they did that here in the UK.

Steve 

[debussy symbolism]

Crikey. They would end up in prison if they did that here in the UK.

Steve 

That's true. However, some people are of course more inclined to use violence to adress their point, naturally. In my opinion the whole teacher and student fiasco is better due to the punishment system for abuse. I think that we had a "traditional teacher" here on the forum. I don't know if she was a real studen't nighmare or just looking for attention.

[stevehopwood]

However, some people are of course more inclined to use violence to adress their point, naturally. In my opinion the whole teacher and student fiasco is better due to the punishment system for abuse.

Legality or otherwise apart, I am sure few teachers would even have nightmares about behaving like that.

I think that we had a "traditional teacher" here on the forum. I don't know if she was a real studen't nighmare or just looking for attention.

Probably. One thing is for sure, she wouldn't be doing much teaching - all her pupils would have left 

Steve 

[gyzzzmo]

I am pretty sure emmdoubleew and gyzzzmo are teasing, DS.

Steve 

I never tease.
I used to kill kids for breakfast so i had something to eat.
But these days kids seem to sit on their buttocks too much and their grease really tastes weird......

[stevehopwood]

 

[thaicheow]

Dear elisianna,

Please DO NOT bother a bit on this matter. It does happens, on regular basis.

I remember I used to cry a lot when I was a kid with my piano teacher. Frankly, she is not a very dedicated teacher, but kinda funny and had her eccentricity. I stayed with her until grade 8, and now still a good friend of her.

I encounter this situation when I start up teaching. A young teenage girl, preparing for her A level exam that year, but still insisted in doing her grade 8 practical. She went berserk and wept on just the 2nd lesson (probably her school work stress), all just because I suggested her not to do certain repertoire (that's what she claimed). She kept accusing me that I treated her like a moron, etc. That's fine, as my principle changed her to another teacher in order to keep the business.

I observe students cry or play tantrums, usually with some reasons:

1. The student is under stress.

or

2. The teacher is under stress.

or the student is just being too spoiled at home.

This seldoms happen nowadays to me. Worst come to worst, I just stop the lesson and talk to them, in order just to fullfil the time (so that some parents wont be not happy). Talking consists of asking them their daily life, sharing my own experience, or just talk about current issue,like movies etc.

Look at me now. I have ample of students to have a good living. And there are still a lot of enquiry. This thing happens. And if you wanna make teaching as a lifelong career, you better ready for this kind of situation.

[penguinlover]

I agree with lagin and Steve's philosophy of teaching.  I try my best to encourage the love of music, and to get each student to reach his or her's highest potential.  But, I would never resort to yelling or violence.  I have never had a student cry on me, maybe after they got home, but never in my presence.  I would feel just awful if that ever happened, so I can understand the original post.  That student cried because he was caught in a lie, and it was a good thing he was caught.  Maybe he won't do it again! 

[andric_s]

 :'(One of my student's has cried a couple of times.  Not because I was mean, but It was still so sad!  He is 8 or 9 years old and loves the piano.  I don't think he's very physically coordinated.  He has a difficult time making his fingers do what he wants to.  Sometimes when we're close to playing something right, I make him repeat one measure or phrase over and over, trying to be encouraging "great! that's almost it!  do it again!",  "good that's better, again!",  "again" and again and again.  It usually works, but sometimes it is frustrating for him.

It breaks my heart because he is trying so hard!

[ingagroznaya]

I never tease.
I used to kill kids for breakfast so i had something to eat.
But these days kids seem to sit on their buttocks too much and their grease really tastes weird......

Gyzzzmo, Russians call it "sulo". I find their ( students ) grease very useful for cooking nowadays.
Elisianna, as long as your parents don't cry...Mine sometimes do. That's what I call Fun.

[debussy symbolism]

"sulo". I

It's actually "salo". Ingagroznays, are you perhaps Russian? Your approach certainly sounds like it.

[ingagroznaya]

Debussy, thank you for correcting me. I can't believe I can not spell in russian! 
I am half  russian , half ukrainian. Russian don't eat salo. I guess they cook with it ( I can't remember ). Eating salo is a strictly ukrainian thing.

As a kid I used to get a piece of salo for every hour I'd practice, now I get a piece of salo for every hour THEY don't. Seniority is fun.

ps. I am just about to fire another two students. Reason? - They do not practice. What's the point? Making me miserable cost more.

[pianistimo]

did they cry?

[stevehopwood]

did they cry?

From the flavour of some of the posts here, these kids should have been cheering.

[ingagroznaya]

The method I use requires my students to memorize notes at home and to practice.
Both students are new. If I will try to teach them notes during the lesson time, they would not remember anything when they'll come back a week later. After numerous conversations with parents, explaining how the process works I can't do anything, but to let them go.
The situation is very similar to what Elisianna described in her first post.
Sure, I can start another topic on " how to make it more fun ". I teach full time and feel as I have enough experience to make a decision - I think it would be beneficial for a child to move on. In short, I'd like to give this kid a chance to learn how to play the piano with another teacher. I'm sure there are teachers in my area who could use a student or two. Perhaps someone like Steve or Debussy could enjoy this dreadful company more.
 
This whole issue of student's homework is not an area where I would like or care to expand my self or grow.
I'd like to think both of this students would bloom in the right hands. New teacher like Lagin sounds like a perfect option. After he is done with his 40 hours per week of practicing, he could have fun teaching this two .

[stevehopwood]

The method I use requires my students to memorize notes at home and to practice.

Ever thought about modifying your method?

Please do not misunderstand me. Despite finding some of the posts here questionable, distasteful and stupid, I am not criticizing yours, here.

Nor am I suggesting that students should not practise - non-practising  students will achieve nothing.

What I am asking is this. Have you considered methods that do not involve memorising notes at home?

What about methods that enable students who find this difficult to work out notes, instead of memorising them. Different childrens' minds work in different ways - deny this to yourself and you are on a real hiding to nothing. In musical terms, some learn pieces by reading the notes; others by hearing the tune and working out the notes they have to play aurally; others by feeling their way round the keys, learning the pieces in a tactile way; others with a combination of the last two.

By adopting a 'this is the way I teach and so this is the way students must learn' stance, you are denying your skills to those unable to conform to your outlook. You might like to consider alternative stragegies as a way of enabling more students to benefit from your expertise.

To you and others reading this, you might all consider that this will also result in far less personal stress and emotional tension. So-called 'tough' teachers might take pause to re-evaluate their stance.

I am 55 next birthday. Guess how I know that 'tough' doesn't work, long-term?

Steve 

[lagin]

This whole issue of student's homework is not an area where I would like or care to expand my self or grow.
I'd like to think both of this students would bloom in the right hands. New teacher like Lagin sounds like a perfect option. After he is done with his 40 hours per week of practicing, he could have fun teaching this two .

Sure I'll take them! 

[ingagroznaya]

I did already modify slightly how I teach beginners. I am not willing to go any further. I have no interest in playing baby "thunder" songs, as someone suggested here. It's just not my cap of tea. My style is not for everyone. My own satisfaction after a lesson not any less important to me than a satisfaction of my student. Any modification take enormous amount of research and time. I feel I could use this time much more productively researching and working on new pieces for my playing adult students - they come to me for inspiration and many find that inspiration only when I actually play. My lessons are very intense and that's how I like to keep them. Lay back mode is not for me.

Memorizing 10 notes in a week and 15-20 minutes of daily practicing is not a lot to ask. This little duty serves as a first basic test whether a student can take responsibility and do his homework in the future. I don't want students who don't or can't accomplish basic homework. I understand we are all build differently. I also see huge cultural differences in terms of work culture.

I teach kids from many different backgrounds. Several of my students have physical and mental disabilities. All of them wants to learn and knows how to work hard. I am not "tough", I'm just not very lay back. I don't teach music appreciation class.

As far as I'm concerned, there are Suzuki method out there... there are different instruments too. Why not pick up violin instead? Maybe it's easier?

Father of a kid who I am going to let go this Friday ( if homework is not done ), called me the other day:" So, when is my kid will start playing?"
It was not a question that was difficult to answer: "As soon as your kid will start practicing."
Luck of practice is ground for termination of lessons - it's the part of my policy. I do not promise what I can't deliver.

[ingagroznaya]

I compliment my students endlessly. And only when I've exhausted all my compliments, only then I yell . They know I will yell about something, so they expect the drama.
It's keeps them alert and things are more fun this way, no?

[ingagroznaya]

Uh, forgot to share with you - one of my teenager cried today. I was not yelling. I was silent actually. Closed my face with my hands because I could not see or hear it much longer. I had nothing to say. Neurotic laughs was verging, but I held them. I did not know how to react.
She brought back  Tchaikovsky's "June Barcarolla " for the first time ( first week ) almost up to tempo ( faster actually in some parts ), almost memorized. 1/3 of the notes wrong. If I were not to know what she was playing, I probably would not recognize it at all.

Amused, I asked her to repeat it. She played same nonsense note by note without blinking an eye. Assuming she was a perfect student for 5 years, how would you react? I really did not know how to handle it. If this is happens next week, what should I do? What would you do? 1/3 through out the whole piece. 2/3 in some parts. I don't exaggerate the number.

[stevehopwood]

I did already modify slightly how I teach beginners. I am not willing to go any further. I have no interest in playing baby "thunder" songs, as someone suggested here. It's just not my cap of tea. My style is not for everyone. My own satisfaction after a lesson not any less important to me than a satisfaction of my student. Any modification take enormous amount of research and time.

No it doesn't, ingagroznaya, all it takes is an understanding that different people learn in different ways: by reading; aurally; by physical feel - 'tactile'; by a combination of these.

What we teachers do need is to be able to spot which are the best strategies for our pupils quickly and early in our relationship. Then we can adopt the best learning strategies for the pupils, playing to their strengths and helping them develop their weaker areas.

Insisting, for example, that aural learners learn solely through reading, or that reading learners learn solely through listening are going to be counter-productive strategies. Teachers need to be flexible.

Memorizing 10 notes in a week ............................. is not a lot to ask.

Not to you and I, ingagroznaya, or the other talented ones here. It is a heck of a lot for those with lesser ability - a mountainous task for many. What you are instantly doing here is setting up failure right from the start, for many pupils. Instantly you are saying to a vulnerable beginner unable to meet your over-demanding requirements, "Playing the piano is really hard. You have to be able to master staggeringly large amounts of material in a ridiculously short time. If you cannot do this, then you are useless and should not continue."

Uh, forgot to share with you - one of my teenager cried today. I was not yelling. I was silent actually. Closed my face with my hands because I could not see or hear it much longer. I had nothing to say. Neurotic laughs was verging, but I held them. I did not know how to react.
She brought back  Tchaikovsky's "June Barcarolla " for the first time ( first week ) almost up to tempo ( faster actually in some parts ), almost memorized. 1/3 of the notes wrong. If I were not to know what she was playing, I probably would not recognize it at all.

Amused, I asked her to repeat it. She played same nonsense note by note without blinking an eye. Assuming she was a perfect student for 5 years, how would you react? I really did not know how to handle it. If this is happens next week, what should I do? What would you do? 1/3 through out the whole piece. 2/3 in some parts. I don't exaggerate the number.

Here is how I would have handled this. I would have said, "Great try, well done. It was fluent, nearly up to speed and almost memorised. I am impressed."

Brief pause and a hug (you might need to miss out that last bit  )

"Do you realise how many misreadings you have?"

What happened next would depend on the reply. A 'no' would call for a few lines of me playing it correctly so see if she can hear the difference. Establishing this might call for a bit of me playing it correctly and then demonstrating the difference in her playing, but all kids get the message in the end.

Having established some understanding of how far astray she had gone, this would have followed, "You have three choices. Which one you chose depends entirely on you, on how much you enjoy the piece and how confident you are. You can: abandon the piece altogether; you can take it away and try to correct it yourself - this will be a good exercise for you; I will correct it with you, but this will feel very critical. What is your choice?"

Assuming she wanted to carry on with the piece, my end of lesson comment would be the nearest thing I said to being harsh, "Ok, do the best you can with it for next week. I will not criticise you if you do not make huge progress with the textual accuracy, so do not be apprehensive. We will abandon it next week, though, if it is not a lot better - there is no point in my trying to teach you something that is hopelessly incorrect."

See: no yelling; no unhappiness; no resentful, hurt or humiliated child.

The same sort of event happened here, last Saturday. For reasons that do not matter, 16 year old Kieran had his first lesson for a month. He played me the Mozart D minor Fantasy - he wants to play it as part of an exam programme in November and had two lessons on it previously.

In a way, his performance was wonderful - passionate, full-of-life, stormy, fast, brilllliant finger work, the lot.

And completely, hopelessly wrong. Rhythm clueless. Tempi changing nearly every bar. Stylistically clueless. So far wide of the mark that the mark could not even be seen 

So, did I shout at him? Call him an idiot? Throw things at him? Tell him how bad it really was?

Of course not. That would have gained nothing but a humiliated, resentful, surly and un-cooperative pupil for an hour long lesson that would have been conducted in a hurt silence.

Kieran is emotionally robust, so I did not need to be as gentle with him as with others. What I said was, "Wow. That was some performance. Fiery and passionate doesn't do it justice. How on earth did you play the cadenzas at that speed? Fantastic. You have major problems with the piece, though. Your rhythms are mostly wrong. Your tempi change almost bar-by-bar. The dynamic range and emotional intensity are overdone in much of the piece. Putting the latter right will be easy - I can show you where you are going wrong. Correcting the rhythms will be much harder. After all, I spent the previous two lessons with you on the rhythm and you appear to have taken no notice. I am afraid this is what happens when people do not have a lesson for a month. I am not going to try to do anything about it now because you have already been playing this piece for two months and it is time to do something different. We shall return to it in a few weeks and look afresh at the rhythm and temip. Then it will be a case of correcting them or learning a different piece. Playing it as you do is not an option - you would fail."

Had Kieran played the piece to me without such a long gap in between lessons, my approach would have been slightly different - more in the style I described earlier. A slightly different approach to the same problem given the differing circumstances.

Common to both, and to any other such instances, would be: recognition of, and praise for, what the student has achieved; presentation of the options\explanation of the course of action I am taking.

Shouting? That is an admission of failure by teachers unable to control themselves and consider the feelings of their pupils. That is why I never do it. Doesn't make my teaching any less rigorous, though.

Sorry this post is so long.

Steve 

[clariniano]

I've made students cry. On purpose. In fact, most recently only a few days ago.

 I gave one of my just-turned 11 year old students on Sunday what hopefully is a wake-up call to her. She slipped into her old habits of little practicing. It's so far the second time in my teaching career I have gotten really upset at a student. This is a clarinet student who also happens to be in the gifted program at school, she's an "across the board" gifted student, in which music happens to be one of the things she finds really easy. (She plays well in spite of little practicing, and is working at RCM Grade 4 clarinet) I asked her if she knew how much her mom has spent on her lessons, that her mom is sacrificing a lot for her and her two sisters to take lessons (her oldest sister studies flute, her middle sister studies violin), that there are other kids who would love to take lessons but their parents can't or won't, that I had to pay for my lessons, instrument, and equipment out of my own money, that just because she's gifted does not mean she does not need to practice, plus I'm also considered by my teachers a gifted musician, and that my autistic student could be better than her within a few months.

Her mom told me by email it seems to have worked...so don't feel guilty about doing it.

Meri

[joyfulmusic]

I have my students make a tally box on the page.  One of them started asking me to draw a little picture of something.  For instance in a piece with a guitar illustration I drew a guitar and he asked me not to draw the strings.  He drew a string on each time he practiced.  He was so little when he started that he looked under his hands to see if he was playing the right key. 

Just today a little girl asked if she could make a box for each day of the week.  I tell them it is  for them to keep track of how much they are practicing.  In most cases it helps immediately.

I have had students cry.  9 times out of 10 their parents are too hard on them in general so they don't know how else to communicate that they are struggling.