CHROMATIC DOUBLE THIRDS---- NEED A GOOD FINGERING PATTERN

[kitty on the keys]

I have a stident that wants to learn the Grieg Concerto. Need some help preparing  him for the double third passages. I need a good fingering pattern and some prep exercizes to ease him into this.

Thanks!

Kitty

[mike_lang]

A sliding fingering is best - you can find examples of such fingerings in Cortot's edition of the Chopin Etudes, Op. 25.  I really don't think there is any prep for these descending thirds other than practicing thirds themselves, and doing them in rhythms (groups of two AND four).

Schmitt also has good thirds fingerings.

[henrah]

I don't know about in the Grieg, but going up in the RH starting on F-Ab:

1-3, 4-2, 1-3, 4-2, 1-5, 2-4, 1-5, 1-3, 2-4, 1-5, 2-4, 1-5, 1-3.

The 1-5 landing on A-C and B-D, then losing the pure legato by releasing the thumb to play 1-3 on C-Eb.

Hope this can be of help,
Henrah

[chocolatedog]

I use the sliding fingering too. Always found it easier than the alternative given when I was practising for my grade 8 exam many many moons ago....... :lol:

Starting on Bb - Db (purely cos it's easiest to see in my mind!) in the RH ascending.

2-3, 2-4, 1-3, 2-4, 1-5, 2-3, 2-4, 1-3, 2-4, 1-3, 2-4, 1-5, and  2-3 (or 2-4) on the next Bb - Db.

Descending is (starting on Bb - Db with 2-3)

2-3, 1-5, 2-4, 1-3, 2-4, 2-3, 1-4, 2-3, 1-5, 2-4, 2-3, 1-4, 2-3.

I know the fingering isn't exactly the opposite on the way down, but I'm fairly sure it was the one I was taught and I still find most natural...... Hope this helps!

[penguinlover]

I am working on this piece too, just for fun. I love it and have never played it before.  I found a fingering in Czerny excercises.  If I am wrong in looking here for help, tell me.  Thanks.

[jlh]

Are you talking about measure 41 and after? If so, then here's what Percy Grainger recommends:

Starting with the D and F in the RH --

5/1 - 4/2 - 3/1 - 5/1 - 4/2 - 5/1 - 4/2 - 3/1 - 5/3 - 4/2 - 5/1 - 4/2 - 5/1

The pattern then repeats.

The other passages are similar.

[ramseytheii]

I use the sliding fingering too. Always found it easier than the alternative given when I was practising for my grade 8 exam many many moons ago....... :lol:

Starting on Bb - Db (purely cos it's easiest to see in my mind!) in the RH ascending.

2-3, 2-4, 1-3, 2-4, 1-5, 2-3, 2-4, 1-3, 2-4, 1-3, 2-4, 1-5, and  2-3 (or 2-4) on the next Bb - Db.

Descending is (starting on Bb - Db with 2-3)

2-3, 1-5, 2-4, 1-3, 2-4, 2-3, 1-4, 2-3, 1-5, 2-4, 2-3, 1-4, 2-3.

I know the fingering isn't exactly the opposite on the way down, but I'm fairly sure it was the one I was taught and I still find most natural...... Hope this helps!

This is almost exactly the fingering I use, and I would recommend it too!
The way to practice double thirds is to play them with two hands, listen very carefully, and then play back with one hand exactly what you heard. 
The trick to play double thirds is to not play double thirds, but play the melodic line.

Walter Ramsey

[pianiststrongbad]

There are several topics on this.  I use the fingering I mentioned here: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,14984.msg160186.html#msg160186

[kghayesh]

The trick to play double thirds is to not play double thirds, but play the melodic line.

Walter Ramsey

What is the melodic line in a minor thirds chromatic scale ??

[kghayesh]

Does anybody know the fingering of the chromatic double thirds for the LEFT hand

[edouard]

Hi there,

I know exactly the bit you mean! It appears twice in the piece. It must be very fluid and relaxed and quite fast.

For the left hand I would say:

15, 123, 125

For the right hand:

the cortot fingering starting with 15. The godowsky fingering works equally well for some, but Im not too keen on using 34. For the Cortot fingering I practise the upper and lower parts separately. I also practice the thirds marking every three (alternating accents) so as to "mark out" a diminished seventh arpegio. Also keep changing the accents, nuances and rhythms around until you feel that the is no "weaker" third.
Also given that the scale happens rather abruptly it is worth working specifically on continuity with the previous passage.

Obviously, although it is a pleasant chord, practice hands separately and avoid all use of the pedal until it gets down to finishing touches.

Its very much a matter of personal physinomy and taste as there are very many ways of executing a chromatic scale in thirds. (you could even do 14 25 14 25 etc... if you really wanted to)

good luck with this (if there are any other problematic parts in the concerto Im glad to try to help as I have learnt and relearnt this with completely different fingerings several times and it has taught me much),

Edouard

[dnephi]

I haven't learned the Grieg, but in the Mazeppa and La Campanella we use 24 24 24 24 24 as a two-pronged fork to travel the keyboard at high velocity.  That should work.

[BoliverAllmon]

could you clarify this?

[ramseytheii]

What is the melodic line in a minor thirds chromatic scale ??

There are two melodic lines, the top line of the thirds, and the bottom line!  Do you think just because it is a scale, it is not a melody?

Walter Ramsey

[mwarner1]

Well I don't know about this particular piece, but in the chromatic double thirds section of Chopin's prelude in d minor (Op. 28 No. 24), I devised my own fingering that enables me to play it completely legato without pedal or sliding.

From D and F in right hand descending:

1-5, 2-4, 1-3, 2-5, 3-4, 1-5, 2-4, 1-3, 2-5, 1-3, 2-5, 3-4, and 1-5 back at D and F. Repeat.

It was really hard to do at first (seems very awkward), and it took a lot of slow practice, but now I can do it pretty easily. There actually is something of a pattern to it, if you examine it closely. The hardest ones to hit are the 3-4's, which always occur on two black notes (Bb and Db, Eb and Gb).

I'm not sure about ascending; I know I do something similar but I think it's slightly different -- but since I tried it after I had the descending under my fingers, I actually just kind of intuitively make the switch.

But now I can do asending/descending in both hands.

[mike_lang]

I haven't learned the Grieg, but in the Mazeppa and La Campanella we use 24 24 24 24 24 as a two-pronged fork to travel the keyboard at high velocity.  That should work.

This is interesting - can you further describe how this works?  Is it a matter of wrist rebound, glissando, or what?

Thanks,
ML

[dnephi]

This is interesting - can you further describe how this works?  Is it a matter of wrist rebound, glissando, or what?

Thanks,
ML

Well, it's played detached, but it's not wrist rebound because that takes time.  It's part of the hand moving and partly the fingers moving to get optimal speed/power.  The 2nd and 4th fingers are lowerthan the others, like a two-pronged fork.  You can get it better with practice. 

Personally, I adapted Godowsky's article on octave technique (see leopoldgodowsky.com ... it's free to download) for 2-4 technique.  It really helped. 

I think it's worth a try, although I may be wrong, I don't know where in the score for the Grieg this is.