Scales in Double Thirds -- fingering?

[robertp]

I'm querying here because my excellent and inspirational teacher never had to play major/minor scales in double thirds. And there are...too many choices for fingerings.  Here are the three I've found for C major:

Hanon RH 12 13 24 35 13 24 35 12  LH 53 42 31 21 53 42 31 53
Cooke RH 13 24 35 13 24 13 24 13  LH 53 42 31 42 31 42 31 53
Peskanov RH 13 24 35 12 13 24 35 13  LH 53 42 31 12 53 42 31 53

Hanon, of course, doesn't cover all 24 scales.

All I've found in some relentless earching here and elsewhere is that robert_henry likes the Peskanov fingerings in general.

So I'd welcome news of real world experience with these fingerings, and/or some advice on how to choose.

thanks!

[pianistimo]

cooke actually modifies the fingering according to the scale.  for C major - it's what you quoted. for G major it's 31, 42, 31, 42,31, 42, 53, 31 and 24, 13, 24,13, 35, 24, 13, 24 for lh.

for D major it's 31, 42, 53, 31, 42, 31, 42, 31 and lh 24, 13, 24, 13, 35, 24, 13, 24

it looks like peskanov has a similar version to hanon except he uses the 21, 31 later in the scale.

you've got a good question!

[pianistimo]

i think this question was on an earlier thread and several people came up with differnt fingering - some using 2345 as the top finger (like hanon) except repeated 2x. maybe it depends on how many octaves you are playing and where it fits into your music (what comes before and after).

[pianistimo]

i tried this and it's tricky at the turn-around.  but you can keep the lh going similarly with the lowest notes following a pattern of 5432, 5432  (thumb used with 3 and2)

perhaps if you work out how many octaves you are going to play - then work the fingering accordingly so it comes out smooth.  thirds add a dimension to scale playing that is trickier when resolving endings. 

[robertp]

Thanks, pianistimo!

To clarify. These are straight scales in the traditional sense; not a part of a composition. So I'd be doing four octaves. I'd certainly be glad for anyone to direct me if this has been covered in a thread -- I could *seem* to find such a thread!

And you're right, the fingering varies inside an author, obviously. But it seems relatively internally consistent.

Maybe I may have to choose on a per-scale basis. But that raises the issue -- how do I choose? I've got no problems choosing, and working out, alternate fingerings for regular scales, but these here thirds...different issues, I think! And, as your rightly point out, rhythms can change matters....

[pianistimo]

well, you have rules -- nothing but fourth finger on black keys and fifth on white.  i say, break all the rules.  after all - it's not like we have a photographic memory to remember all the fingerings for all 24 major and minor third patterns.  make it easy on yourself and fudge when your teacher isn't looking.

[stevehopwood]

I use whatever fingering feels most comfortable\least uncomfortable in each individual scale.

I don't mind my students fudging, even when I am watching 

Steve 

[pianistimo]

you're my kind of teacher.  i mean, unless your sitting down to play the paganini variations and have to work it all out -you are playing to the wind anyway.  now trilling on thirds might be a good exercise (alternating - as with five finger third exercises).  or, just playing them as the five finger exercise.  to me this is much simpler and more to the point of learning thirds.

[stevehopwood]

you're my kind of teacher.  i mean, unless your sitting down to play the paganini variations and have to work it all out -you are playing to the wind anyway.  now trilling on thirds might be a good exercise (alternating - as with five finger third exercises).  or, just playing them as the five finger exercise.  to me this is much simpler and more to the point of learning thirds.

Yes, quite why pianists have to play 4 octave double scales in both hands escapes me - I have yet to come across a piece in which this was necessary. If it were, I wouldn't play the piece. 

I can think of a fair few pieces with shorter, single handed thirds but not enough to justify the hoops that exam boards put students through. Pianists good enough to play those pieces can do the Chopin 3rds study and knock the problem on the head for good.

I suppose you could argue that dexterity and flexibility are good things to have and that this is sufficient reason to practise double thirds scales. I would prefer me and my students spent our time in more interesting persuits.

Steve 

[robertp]

Big tnks to all who took the trouble to reply to this, er, technical question!

I took the choices for a spin with G major. Peskanov seems to work best for me. So I think I'll be guided by what I've learned here -- choose on a per case basis.

[ted]

Speaking for myself, for scale based groups I use the 1/3,2/4,3/5 sequence as much as possible with appropriate modifications and displacement depending on the white/black pattern and what best fits my hand. Chromatic double notes surely comprise too special a case to make rules about, as everybody's hand is different.

The reasoning  I apply to these is the same as I apply to ordinary scales or any playing form. I have always known I CAN rush up and down in double notes if I care to; exactly why on earth I should wish to do so in precisely the same way every day escapes me. Like any playing form, their sound can be beautiful in the right places during improvisation. The same goes for composition. Chopin's study, in musical hands, not the ninety-miles-an-hour belt it out brigade, is delicate, mysterious and beautiful; Debussy's is nice; Waller and Johnson put them to work in very exciting ways. Czerny's and others are uninteresting grinds to me.

[robertp]

Excellent point, Ted -- tnks! Seems the consensus here. Makes sense (your last points are choice).

[kghayesh]

I'm querying here because my excellent and inspirational teacher never had to play major/minor scales in double thirds. And there are...too many choices for fingerings.  Here are the three I've found for C major:

Hanon RH 12 13 24 35 13 24 35 12  LH 53 42 31 21 53 42 31 53
Cooke RH 13 24 35 13 24 13 24 13  LH 53 42 31 42 31 42 31 53
Peskanov RH 13 24 35 12 13 24 35 13  LH 53 42 31 12 53 42 31 53

Hanon, of course, doesn't cover all 24 scales.

All I've found in some relentless earching here and elsewhere is that robert_henry likes the Peskanov fingerings in general.

Welllllll... can somebody tell me an appropriate fingering for the descending scales in double thirds ?? What's written above is for ascending.

So I'd welcome news of real world experience with these fingerings, and/or some advice on how to choose.

thanks!

[stevehopwood]

Welllllll... can somebody tell me an appropriate fingering for the descending scales in double thirds ?? What's written above is for ascending.

Use the same fingerings reading from right back to left.

So I'd welcome news of real world experience with these fingerings, and/or some advice on how to choose.

thanks!

Real world experience has taught me that there is no need to beat yourself up over this issue. Use whichever fingering is most comfortable\least uncomfortable for you and try not to complicate matters.

Steve 

[robertp]

Well-said, Steve!

I decided on Pesk. for the smoothest scales. But just like single note scales, fingerings that one uses for scales don't regularly turn up in real-world music, although they do on occasion.

%%robert