Shostakovich : Fugue in a minor, Op 87 no 2 -- Voicing ?

[m1469]

Hello

I am working on this fugue and just wanted to run this passage and a question by you people :



This is a three voice fugue, and I am just curious about the third measure in on this excerpt.  As you can see, some stems are up, and some are down.   I am inclined to think that between these stems and the rests, there are two voices interacting in the bass.  It doesn't make sense to me though for these voices to just have a random arpeggio within the other voices random arpeggios. 

And as you can see in the last measure, there are no rests given for the inner voice when the bass voice apparently takes over again on beat 2.

Anyway, am I interpreting it correctly that the middle voice does not die out in the second bar on the f# ?

Thoughts and knowldege appreciated 


Thanks,
m1469

[pnorcks]

In the third measure of this excerpt, the stem directions as well as the placement of rests lead me to believe that the middle voice is still present (considering that some rests are placed above notes and others are placed below).  If the bass and middle voices, in the third measure, were written on separate staves, here's how they would look:

Bass voice: D, (sixteenth rest), (eighth rest), (sixteenth rest), D, C, B natural
Middle voice: (sixteenth rest), E-flat, G-flat, B-flat, E-flat, (sixteenth rest), (eighth rest)

The fourth measure is more ambiguous in terms of identifying which notes belong to which voice, but from a "motivic" standpoint, I think the answer becomes clear.

Looking at the first beat of the fourth measure (in the excerpt), there is no confusion, because no rests are missing from the page:

Bass voice: B-flat, (sixteenth rest), (eighth rest)
Middle voice: (sixteenth rest), D, F-sharp, A
Soprano voice: A

The D5 and the B-flat3 that appear in the bass staff on beat 2 of the fourth measure don't have rests written above or below them, so it appears that either the bass voice or middle voice has disappeared.  However, this is where a motivic analysis becomes helpful.

In the second measure and the beginning of the third measure, I'll consider the motive the bass voice plays: D, F, A, D.  In the third measure, this motive is passed to the middle voice and transposed up by an interval of a minor ninth: E-flat, G-flat, B-flat, E-flat.  In the fourth measure, a similar motive appears with two slight modifications in intervallic structure and rhythmic structure: the last note of the motive is an eighth note played staccato instead of a sixteenth note played staccato, and the interval between the first and second notes of the motive is a major third instead of the minor third in the original motive.  So the third statement of the motive has the same contour as the original motive; it consists of four ascending pitches: D, F-sharp, A, D.

So, from a "motivic analysis" standpoint, the D5 on beat 2 of the fourth measure belongs to the middle voice.

In the context of the same measure and the next several measures, the B-flat3 (the B-flat immediately below middle C) could be the bass voice or the middle voice.  If you called it the "middle" voice at this point, in measure 37, it would become the bass voice.  I've noticed that this happens again a few more times throughout the fugue.  So at this point it would become difficult naming the voices soprano, middle, and bass! 

In my opinion, the B-flat3 in the fourth measure belongs to the lowest voice, the "bass" voice, and continues until measure 25, when the "middle" voice plays the E-flat4.  Then the bass voice comes in again in measure 27 on D2.

I hope this helps, m1469.  Good luck learning this fugue!


pnorcks

[m1469]

WOW ! 

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response, pnorks.  Yes, it does happen a few more times throughout the piece...

Sometimes rests are missing but still there are only two voices occuring (in other places -- I have noticed the same thing in Bach's works too (or at least within the editions I have been using)) so that's part of what is confusing to me... the rests are not consitently placed throughout to help define what's happening.

I will go back through and look at it with a printout in-hand of your post. 

Thanks once again !

m1469

[m1469]

Reading back on your post, there are some things that don't make sense to me.  And, are you suggesting that one does not think of this fugue in terms of voice-parts ?  I have realized that I have been thinking wrongly this whole time regarding which voice is which, in many places.  As it turns out (and probably you already know this) the bass voice begins the fugue (though in the treble clef), and the middle voice doesn't start until bar 5.  I thought it was the middle voice which started the fugue.

I can't seem to stop myself from thinking in the way of voice-parts (my mind needs this organization... plus, I am memorizing voices separately) and I have more questions... unfortunately. 

My main question is : Do voices-parts ever change positions, while all voices are active, for an extended amount of time ?  What I mean by this is exemplified in the excerpts and my questions below :  



Now... for my next couple of dilemas (and I have tried to figure this out) :

bar 32-35



My question is, is it plausible that the soprano voice has taken the middle position from 33-35 ?  As you can see, there are similar arpeggios happening amongst the bass part, as like the measures I have asked about in my first post.  One would think it is merely the middle voice again.  But it stops making any sense, if that were the case, by bar 35--37. 


bar 36-39



As you can see in the second image, the middle voice appears to be in the upper position in bar 36 and then taking the middle position in bar 37.  However, motivically speaking, where it's coming from would not make sense unless it was the top line from bar 33 (to bar 36).


And, I have a similar question here :

bar 48-50




My concept would say that in bar 48, the "middle voice" is in the bass at this point... however, after that... (?)  Is it plausible that the middle voice is living in the treble during beat 1 of 49 (and that the quarter rest refers to the "soprano voice") and then perhaps it becoming the "F" in the bass clef on the second beat of mm 49 ?


Thanks,
m1469

[pnorcks]

Hi m1469,

Ultimately, I believe you have to think of this fugue in terms of independent voices, since there is a ton of voice crossing going on all the time.  Even a displacement of more than an octave in a voice seems very reasonable, since this is 20th century counterpoint we're analyzing here!  lol

So, to your questions (I'll try my best to answer them):

...are you suggesting that one does not think of this fugue in terms of voice-parts ?

I think that the voices in this fugue should be seen as independent voices; maybe voice 1, voice 2, voice 3, instead of soprano, middle, and bass.

My main question is : Do voices-parts ever change positions, while all voices are active, for an extended amount of time ?

As long as you figure out which voice a note belongs to, in the context of the surrounding measures (and of the entire fugue), the voice-crossing will no longer be troublesome.  But, to answer your question, yes, the voices do change positions relative to each other all the time.

Regarding the first image you posted of bars 32-35, I think the D4 and B-flat4 from beat 1 of bar 33 are both equally qualified to take the "middle voice" of bars 33-36.  It's up to debate, in my opinion.

About the second image, we know that the subject (topmost voice in bar 37-39) is played by the voice that was absent in bars 35-36.  So the question boils down to: which voice takes the low C-sharp2 in the bass register in bar 37?  In my opinion the voice that plays C-sharp4 in the second half of beat 1 of that measure should play it.  This is also debatable.  I'm going with what sounds best.

Your third image really caught my eye.  I hadn't thought of that, but I think you're right!!  So, on beat 1 on measure 49, in one voice there should be the following:

F4 - A4 - C5 - F5 (quarter note with a tie)

Because there was no indication that that voice took the F5, that thought didn't even occur to me.  Plus, those four notes make up the same contour motive I mentioned in my last post.

**

I guess I went a little overboard with this one, but I enjoy analyzing fugues!!  Here's my interpretation of the voice layout in this fugue: (the images might take a while to load if you have a slow internet connection, but they're definitely hi-res!)


https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8999/shostfug10dm.jpg

https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5709/shostfug21ym.jpg

https://img133.imageshack.us/img133/2959/shostfug38ny.jpg

https://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3267/shostfug45lg.jpg


I colored the complete statements of the subject in blue, and the appearances of the contour motive in red.  Hope this helps.


pnorcks

[m1469]

Hi m1469,

Ultimately, I believe you have to think of this fugue in terms of independent voices, since there is a ton of voice crossing going on all the time.  Even a displacement of more than an octave in a voice seems very reasonable, since this is 20th century counterpoint we're analyzing here!  lol

Yes, okay, this makes sense.

So, to your questions (I'll try my best to answer them):

I think that the voices in this fugue should be seen as independent voices; maybe voice 1, voice 2, voice 3, instead of soprano, middle, and bass.

Yes, okay, this all makes sense to me now.

As long as you figure out which voice a note belongs to, in the context of the surrounding measures (and of the entire fugue), the voice-crossing will no longer be troublesome.  But, to answer your question, yes, the voices do change positions relative to each other all the time.

Okay... I have seen voice crossing before, but not for extended periods of time like this and not while all the other voices are active simultaneously.  At least I cannot think of any others off the top of my head.

Regarding the first image you posted of bars 32-35, I think the D4 and B-flat4 from beat 1 of bar 33 are both equally qualified to take the "middle voice" of bars 33-36.  It's up to debate, in my opinion.

Yes, that makes sense.  Well, do you think that the "middle voice" also has the descending scale located in the bass within mm 35-36 (which I seem not to know what it is, either) ? It seems that knowing this would help me decide what to do here, as I feel that the top line should be all one voice from 33-36.

About the second image, we know that the subject (topmost voice in bar 37-39) is played by the voice that was absent in bars 35-36.  So the question boils down to: which voice takes the low C-sharp2 in the bass register in bar 37?  In my opinion the voice that plays C-sharp4 in the second half of beat 1 of that measure should play it.  This is also debatable.  I'm going with what sounds best.

Okay.  I realize I need to look at this stuff even more in-depth now, as I can't seem to figure out a discernable line from start to finish.   Though, I know there are patterns.  I will take your same guidelines and work with what sounds best.

Your third image really caught my eye.  I hadn't thought of that, but I think you're right!!  So, on beat 1 on measure 49, in one voice there should be the following:

F4 - A4 - C5 - F5 (quarter note with a tie)

Because there was no indication that that voice took the F5, that thought didn't even occur to me.  Plus, those four notes make up the same contour motive I mentioned in my last post.

I was actually thrilled when this thought came to me... I suppose I am somewhat of a nerd... but hey, what can I say ? 

**

I guess I went a little overboard with this one, but I enjoy analyzing fugues!!  Here's my interpretation of the voice layout in this fugue: (the images might take a while to load if you have a slow internet connection, but they're definitely hi-res!)


https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8999/shostfug10dm.jpg

https://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5709/shostfug21ym.jpg

https://img133.imageshack.us/img133/2959/shostfug38ny.jpg

https://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3267/shostfug45lg.jpg


I colored the complete statements of the subject in blue, and the appearances of the contour motive in red.  Hope this helps.


pnorcks

Well, I don't think you went overboard at all, and I very much appreciate your willingness to respond in so much detail.  This is the kind of thing that is a little overwehlming for me, but that which I could never ever let go of until I figure out.  When I tried to nab the images that you posted (which I greatly appreciate, btw) I couldn't seem to view them without enlarging them.  And then, it would only allow me to view one mearsure at a time (super big).  So, I tried priniting it out, and it prints the super big view.    Do you know what I can do to change that ?  I would really like to be able to view them.


Thank you very much

m1469

[pnorcks]

Hi m1469,

...Well, do you think that the "middle voice" also has the descending scale located in the bass within mm 35-36 (which I seem not to know what it is, either) ? It seems that knowing this would help me decide what to do here, as I feel that the top line should be all one voice from 33-36.

Yes, I agree about what you're saying regarding the middle voice and the top line.  You'll see what I did below.

Ignore the links to the images I posted yesterday.  The resolution was far too high to be reasonable.  Try these scaled-down versions instead.  They're still very clear even though the resolution isn't as high.  Let me know if these are better:

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2899/shostfug10oo.jpg

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9140/shostfug26gd.jpg

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4576/shostfug31to.jpg

https://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6303/shostfug42kb.jpg




pnorcks

[pianistimo]

dear pnorks, 

just out of curiousity - i looked at the first voicing analysis (i find this all very intrueiging) and wondered if the blue voice would actually end in measure five - with the eighth rest to complete the phrase. 
 oh...i see- u are giving lead ins.  guess there are many cross-overs in shosty - but don't u think that the blue voice would end in measure 5?  is it because of appearing rest placements that the voicing is really messed up.  it looks like the next blue voice in measure 5 is another 'voice.'  seems that each phrase is made up of five measures and occasionally one or two in between to break things up.

very cool how u did the note heads. 

[pianistimo]

looks like at the end (if u count measures backwards)  he moves from three measure phrases, to four measure phrases (with a couple of single measures to break things up) to the five measure phrases. 

he was quite the mathemetician.  he worked in a sort of half random/half mathematic process, didn't he?  he did some doubling that is usually not allowed, right? 

this music probably sounds interesting with different instrumentation on different voices.

[pnorcks]

just out of curiousity - i looked at the first voicing analysis (i find this all very intrueiging) and wondered if the blue voice would actually end in measure five - with the eighth rest to complete the phrase. 
 oh...i see- u are giving lead ins.  guess there are many cross-overs in shosty - but don't u think that the blue voice would end in measure 5?  is it because of appearing rest placements that the voicing is really messed up.  it looks like the next blue voice in measure 5 is another 'voice.'  seems that each phrase is made up of five measures and occasionally one or two in between to break things up.

Hi pianistimo,

I had originally considered including the A3 as part of the subject, because, in reality, the phrase does end on the A3.  However, when I thought about it some more, I remembered reading that the subject ends immediately preceding the point at which the answer and countersubject both begin.  So, my interpretation is that the A3 on beat 1 of bar 5 marks the beginning of the countersubject, and the E5 in the top voice marks the beginning of the real answer (in the same bar).

I hope this makes sense.  If I'm completely off track here, let me know.


pnorcks

[pianistimo]

that's how i interpreted it, too.  thanks for clearing this up.  maybe with modern fugues some of these rules are bent.  it clearly seems to start before the end of the subject.