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Topic: repeated notes  (Read 1635 times)

Offline piano0159

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repeated notes
on: May 30, 2006, 02:01:41 PM
Why it is recommended to switch fingers when playing repeated notes
For example in Fur Else, the last section the left hand plays the A with 3,2,1,3,2,1 fingering. Is this method faster than just 2,2,2,2,2,2,2

I would like to learn the proper method.

Thank you

Offline kaiwin

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #1 on: May 30, 2006, 02:15:13 PM
Its based on personal preference, you don't need to follow the fingerings in the book.  ;D

Offline Bob

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #2 on: May 30, 2006, 02:20:21 PM
Switching fingers keeps the tension from building up in the hand.  If it's fast, it's a lot easier to switch fingers than strain using one finger.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline debussy symbolism

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #3 on: May 30, 2006, 02:58:43 PM
Greetings.

On repeated notes, it is much harder to stay in control and have a good sound on a fast tempo, whilst not alternating the fingers. Bob is right conserning the tension in hands. It's got to be tension free.
 :)

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #4 on: May 30, 2006, 04:54:01 PM
Whilst you could finger 22222222 in a piece like Fur Elise, eventually as you progress through more difficult repetoire, you will need to get used to different fingering, so you might as well do it now.

I have recently added a piece by Gottschalk called Souvenir de Andalouise to my repetoire. I would need to have a technique like a woodpecker to play it without switching fingers.

Bobs post is spot on in my opinion.

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Offline Motrax

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #5 on: May 30, 2006, 05:13:23 PM
I certainly agree with everyone, as I use 321321 or 43214321 (or 5432154321 in some rare instances) for repeated notes myself. However, I did speak to a pianist who used 222222 for the introduction to Scarbo, and she managed to do it remarkably well. She told me that she got a more even sound using the same finger, whereas using different fingers resulted in a slight accent on the "downbeat" of each repetition.

I think, though, that enough practice with alternating fingers will result in an even sound.
"I always make sure that the lid over the keyboard is open before I start to play." --  Artur Schnabel, after being asked for the secret of piano playing.

Offline allthumbs

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #6 on: May 30, 2006, 05:48:38 PM
Switching fingers keeps the tension from building up in the hand.  If it's fast, it's a lot easier to switch fingers than strain using one finger.

Switching fingers is also faster than pecking away with one finger.
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Offline thalbergmad

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #7 on: May 30, 2006, 06:06:57 PM
However, I did speak to a pianist who used 222222 for the introduction to Scarbo, and she managed to do it remarkably well.

She would make an excellent "Morse Code" operator.
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Offline ramseytheii

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #8 on: May 30, 2006, 06:57:00 PM
Sometimes you just use the same and sometimes change.  When I change, I like to imagine that each finger is playnig a different note, and I then get a superior articulation.  Also, there is a circular motion of the hand originating in the elbow that goes towards playing fast repeated notes cleanly.  Finally, stroke the keys and do not "push" them down, or "stab" them or anything else.  Pet the keys as you would a cat.

Walter Ramsey

Offline piano0159

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #9 on: May 30, 2006, 08:46:39 PM
Thanks for your replies,
I thought I was playing incorrectly when I heard recordings of the piece. I can't seem to play those repeated notes any faster with my single-finger technique. I will try to switch my fingers, but i just keep hitting wrong notes and it messes up my flow.

Just curious is there any biological reasons that the switch fingering is faster?

Offline debussy symbolism

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #10 on: May 30, 2006, 08:50:37 PM
Thanks for your replies,
I thought I was playing incorrectly when I heard recordings of the piece. I can't seem to play those repeated notes any faster with my single-finger technique. I will try to switch my fingers, but i just keep hitting wrong notes and it messes up my flow.

Just curious is there any biological reasons that the switch fingering is faster?

I can't provide with a definite explanation, but I think that the reason that it is easier with switching finger method, is because you don't have to spend time preparing the finger. Whilest the other fingers are playing, your ready fingers are ready to play the notes.

Offline Bob

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #11 on: May 30, 2006, 10:10:04 PM
Biological reason?  That your not lifting a finger (hand, arm, etc.) and then pushing it down.  At some point when you start get near the edge of your ability you'll create tension by having the finger attempting to go up and down at the same time. 
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline alejo_90

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #12 on: May 31, 2006, 02:39:54 AM
In single ideas :
- Switching fingers makes it a lot faster.
- Your hand doesn't get tired or tensed.
- The sound is cleaner.

When you play some pieces like HR2, or others that have that  finger method to make sixteenth notes you'll see.

Best
Alex
It's better to make your own mistakes than copy someone else's. - Vladimir Horowitz

Offline tocca

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #13 on: May 31, 2006, 08:26:21 PM

Just curious is there any biological reasons that the switch fingering is faster?

Try tapping four times in a row as fast as possible on a desk with the same finger. Then try the same while alternating with fingers 4,3,2,1
I'd say the last is at least ten times as fast!!
Above all, it's much more comfortable in the long run, not building any tension.
Playing 4,3,2,1,4,3,2,1,4.... i could go on for... a long time. Using one finger would get tiresome quite fast.

Offline piano0159

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #14 on: June 01, 2006, 05:32:17 AM
I get what you are saying. Now I think this could make me play faster. However I keep hitting wrong notes, especially my thumb. What should I do besides practicing to improve? should I tilt my hand? any suggestions?

Offline franzliszt2

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #15 on: June 01, 2006, 08:16:50 PM
Practice it this way

put a C (or anynote) down, and hold, now..... switch fingers on the C in the order 1,2,3,4,4,3,2,1,1,2,3,4,3,2,1 etc...... BUT  do not let the not RISE So it stays down, and the fingers keep changing.

Do that, then, start using 1,2,3,3,2,1 but let the note rise and fall sounding at every change. Do it slowly, metromome at 60, 4 notes to a beat, but even. Then notch up the metroneme at will, but keeping even.

Wrist much have the smallest amount of mvt, keep it to an absolute minimum, and hand fairly still. Keep it VERY relaxed, and you can go on for ever, I try to see how long I can last, and I can hit 4 mins easily, then I get bored lol.

It is an essential technique, for pieces like Ravel's Alborado, Liszt Gnomenreigen etc...

As for thumb hitting wrong notes, my only explanation is that you are moving your hand too much, minimal movement. Nver let the note rise fully, you have to find the point where the hammer is just off the string, but only a tap can make it strike, and hold that point with tiny flicks of the fingers. With experience, and when you know the instrument, you get a feel for that point. Like a clutch when driving a car.

As for the 2222 in Scarbo, I was advised to do that too, and I have read my articles about it. The fact is that Ravel's piano action was very light, and that can be noticed by his piano writing, try Albarado Glissando's on a modern piano with heavy action ouch!!!!! But 2222 can be done, with 1 finger repetitions, it's all in the wrist, just as octave repetitions are. The big thing is relxation, and you will know very fast if uyou are not relaxed, you get tense forearms, and you wrist will stop moving.

Hope that helps.  :)

Offline elevateme

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #16 on: June 02, 2006, 05:47:14 PM
wow that works
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #17 on: June 02, 2006, 09:40:05 PM




As for thumb hitting wrong notes, my only explanation is that you are moving your hand too much, minimal movement.

Hope that helps.  :)


I think that's definitely all good advice, and just wanted to add that minimal movement does not mean no movement at all.  I only do that, not to contradict, but from my own experience of observing student's reactions to that idea.  It means the smallest possible of the right movement, in this case a small circular motion from the elbow - the fingers don't do all the work here.   That is why I like to imagine 4 repeated notes like a downward scale of 4 notes that are just uber-articulated.  It helps the body get into it, and it gets the mind off "repeating" the notes!

Walter Ramsey
 

Offline piano0159

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Re: repeated notes
Reply #18 on: June 02, 2006, 09:44:08 PM
I can already hear improvements in my playing.
This really works. Thank you.
 

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