Help me justify "Thumb Over" playing to my teacher

[pianarchist]

So I went to my lesson yesterday looking forward to asking some questions I hadn't had time to ask when practicing for my exam. I especially was looking forward to seeing the TO method of playing scales, arps etc. in action and to finally be able to start working on it. But when I mention another method of playing scales where the thumb is not moved under the hand my teach say "no, you must always move your thumb under, there is no other way.)

I'm dissapointed. I wanted to be shown how to do it. Now its the other way around. When I told her that I had read about it on the internet (and a certain book that can be downloaded on the internet) I was given the "you can't trust everything you read on the internet" kind of talk . She wants to see what Ive been reading.

So can any of you help me? How can I prove to my teacher that it is a legitimate technique? What are some good references? 

[henrah]

Practice it and show her the efficiency of it. Also talk to her about the arguement that neither are better than the other, and both should be used by a pianist. TU for legato, TO for speed. At least that's the impression I've been given.
Henrah

[emmdoubleew]

I agree with your teacher. You cant physically have equal tone if there is a space between your 4th/3rd finger and your thumb pressing the key.

[namui]

Efficient thumb-over technique requires a slight "rotation" for placing thumb while shifting hand. This almost eliminate the need to intentionally press the thumb individually.

Probably want to read Bernhard's reply here.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72311.html#msg72311

[pianarchist]

I have no problem understanding it myself. I have read everything I can find on the topic. I was just hoping my teacher would be able to demonstrate it to me and confirm that I am going about learning it the right way. Instead I have to now explain it to her, as well as provide evidence that it is a real technique, not just made up by some internet pianist.

I am hoping people can give some references of books etc where professional pianists discuss TO playing...or maybe even a way of showing her that she uses it her self without realising

[henrah]

Ask her to play a TU scale as fast as possible. Then ask her to do the same but in parallel sets, i.e. releasing your hand from the keyboard after every set and setting it down on the thumb. Basically an exaggerated TO. Try and get her to see the efficiency for speed of TO, but also state the uses of TU and how TO can never produce a pure legato in slow speeds.

[mike_lang]

I am not sure about this TO business - why do you not simply use the shift motion when you need speed in scales?  Thumb under at slow speeds that require legato, shift at quick speeds where the gap is imperceptible.

ML

[pianarchist]

I am not sure about this TO business - why do you not simply use the shift motion when you need speed in scales?  Thumb under at slow speeds that require legato, shift at quick speeds where the gap is imperceptible.

ML

That is what I always intended. And shifting the hand is exactly what TO playing requires, as others have said the term "TO" is a misnomer.

[mike_lang]

That is what I always intended. And shifting the hand is exactly what TO playing requires, as others have said the term "TO" is a misnomer.

Sorry - I suppose I was another victim of TO confusion.

How about you explain that your process is one-step rather than her two-step one?  As I say, the gap is imperceptible at higher speeds, and so rather than moving your thumb under and then your hand, you do both in one step.  Simply a matter of efficiency.  Best wishes.

ML

[cfortunato]

"Thumb over" IS a misnomer, and when I first read the phrase, I had no idea what it was, as it seemed to move your thumb OVER the rest of you hand. 

When I read what it was, I realized that it was what I had always done, as a natural progression from playing thumb under very fast.  Just show it to your teacher and don't call it "thumb over."  See what she says.

[pianarchist]

Sorry - I suppose I was another victim of TO confusion.

How about you explain that your process is one-step rather than her two-step one?  As I say, the gap is imperceptible at higher speeds, and so rather than moving your thumb under and then your hand, you do both in one step.  Simply a matter of efficiency.  Best wishes.

ML

Thats good. Who can argue with more efficient playing?

[henrah]

True, TO is a misnomer. I also thought it required a movement over your hand. It's basically just called that because it's not TU. I think it should be called TS - Thumb Sideways - as that's what it really entails. Or HS rather, to be more accurate.

[gorbee natcase]

Try recording yourself both ways to determine which is smoother It depends on the speed of the piece I find thumb over is beter for vivace/presto/isimo,    but not for slower passages as the thumb sounds oddly loud against the other notes. simply because your thumb has greater distance to fall an can over emphasise this note