Does anyone want to go through the Tonal Harmony book together?

[keyofc]

Tonal Harmony book by Kosta

[m1469]

YES !!!!!!!!!!!

Do you have a workbook too ? I do, I do


what i have been doing is taking subjects that I am interested in and studying up on them.  But we could figure something out together.

[keyofc]

m1469,
That would be fantastic!  I will have to check out the difference in books I have.
I do have a workbook!  The cover is tan, the old one was blue - which one do you have?
The text book I have is blue - I compared the new book with the blue one once and didn't see a lot of difference, but it would probably be hard to use both together. 

Let me know what you have and we can work out things!

[m1469]

I have the third edition.  It sounds like we have different editions, but that's okay, we can compare info.

How do you want to start ?  As I mentioned before, I have been having better luck picking subjects and reading up on them.... how do you feel about that ?  Is there any place you like to begin ?

The fun thing about that is that more people could enter the conversation even if they don't have the exact book.  We could just kinda move through these subjects in our own order.

*Excited !!!*


m1469

[amanfang]

I have this book too!  Mine is blue.  We used it for freshman theory.  It would be good to go back through.

[allchopin]

The fun thing about that is that more people could enter the conversation even if they don't have the exact book.  We could just kinda move through these subjects in our own order.

*Excited !!!*


m1469

So innocent...
It's hard to remember any excitement after taking three courses with the blasted book.  Don't worry, your enthusiasm should die after a few chapters or so. 

[m1469]

I have this book too!  Mine is blue.  We used it for freshman theory.  It would be good to go back through.

We decided to cover chapter 5, "Principles of voice leading," to begin with.   Do you have the workbook, too ?  Either way.

So innocent...

Yeah 

[keyofc]

I'm ready tonite to go through the book, but I did not find my workbook in the office.  I definietly have one - but in the meantime do you want to go through certain questions?
The text book has a lot of questions too
but if someone can email a sheet somehow of the workbook that would be great!

[mindlessmusings]

:O!

My summer music theory class is using this book.  I'm getting the workbook soon from amazon, so hopefully i can join into this discussion.

[mike_lang]

I'll join in this - how are you going about it?  Are we doing this on the forum, on AIM, email, or what?

Best,
Michael

[keyofc]

Michael,
The plan was doing it on the forum - I think we all got caught up in summer,  At least that's what I did - it was my idea, but haven't moved a lot on it lately.
But I would like to do it in September -
We were reading first chapter on Voice leading in tonal harmony.
What about taking turns t hrowing out ideas and using them?
For myself - I get confused with all of the exceptions in theory and all of the examples of how NOT to do something.
Maybe we could use literature that we know - and talk about why the voice leading works?
I'm currently going through a jazz piece, but how about suggesting a classical piece?

[mindlessmusings]

Yeah, I'm always confused about which "rules" to follow first.  Do I compromise smooth voice leading by trying to keep the two lower parts more open than the soprano and alto part, or does conserving notes from the previous chord carry more importance?

[leucippus]

I read this thread and thought this might be interesting.  I'm not familiar with the book but I am interested in learning more about music theory.

I'm a self-taught amateur musician.   I starting playing piano, violin, and classical guitar simultaneously about a year ago.  I'm actually proceeding quite well on all three instruments.  I have no ambition to become a performer.  I'm doing this solely for my own personal enjoyment.

In any case, I thought I might join in here especially if you're going to pick this up in September.  So I looked up the book(s) on Amazon.  The main book appears to be $60 and the workbook with CD's is $44.   I actually wouldn't even hesitate to spend that if I thought it was a good program.  But after reading the mixed reviews I'm concerned.  The reviews seem to be drastically split into two camps of people who seem to love the book unconditionally and people who think it's a total waste of time, full of errors, and not even necessarily a good approach to music theory.

So I think I'll look into other methods of learning music theory for right now.  If I do end up getting these materials I'll either buy them dirt cheap used, (maybe from someone who hates the books), or I'll just borrow them from a library. 

[keyofc]

Leucipus
The only reason I suggest this one -= is that this is the one that all colleges seem
to use.
It is very widely accepted here in Illinois
It is written to give you two college years in music. 
A great reference book - but it does not set a great down to earth tone.

[leucippus]

KeyofC,

I'm totally unfamilar with the ideas behind "music theory".

I mean, I can read music and I have some crude understanding of how to read key signatures and time signatures, etc.  But I would like to have a deeper understanding of the underlying funamentals.

I just looked up the table of contents for the book.  It does seem to be laid out in a pretty well-organized fashion.  I would definitely need to study part-I of the book before jumping into chapter 5.

Chapter 1 is all about key signatures and how they are related.  I could definitely spend quite a bit of time in that chapter alone.    I really don't even have a good understand of the meaning of some simple basic terms like, Intervals, Augmented, Diminished, Inversion, etc.  So I would need to spend some time in chapter 1.

Chapter 2 is all about time signatures.   I could definitely spend some time in that chapter too (no pun intended).  I read a post by Bernard about the difference between pulse and rhythm, but to be honest I wasn't really clear on the precise distinction and how time signatures really work. I would like to study that chapter in some detail as well.

Then Chapters 3 and 4 seem to be about chords and how they are related and how to use them.  Again, this is a chapter I would benefit from.

As far as jumping into chapter 5, I'm clearly not ready for that yet.  But your thread has brought this book to my attention.  Despite the mixed reviews it has on Amazon, I'm impressed with the layout of the table of contents.  It seems to be a good solid intro to music theory.  It's not important to me if it's not the most perfect book in the world.

I'll be looking to get  a copy somehow.  Probably a used copy.  I live very close to a college maybe their bookstore has some used copies.   I'll keep an eye out for this thread and when I start in on the book maybe I'll pop in with what I'm doing.  It won't be until at least September though because I have too many outdoor projects right now to be studying music theory.

[amanfang]

I don't think it's a bad idea if you really don't know much about theory at all.  I would just order the older edition.  They're more or less the same, especially in the beginning parts.  Probably most of the revisions would be in the section on anaylsis of modern music, but that's just a guess.  I havent' reviewed both books.  You'll save yourself a ton by getting an older edition that will work just as well.

[m1469]

Okay.  I am finally rolling back around this direction and I have been thinking about all of this again.  I cannot formally commit to anything, but, as I have been thinking about it, I have realized that it simply does not make any sense to me what-so-ever to go through this without some specific, complimentary ear training.

Not sure how to go about that and my questions regarding ear training in general are rather large right now.

Just my thoughts for the time-being.


m1469

[keyofc]

Sorry, Leuchip
for not responding sooner!
Just saw your post
  Did you start chapter one yet?
the thing about life - it keeps getting in the way of my good plans.
  I am going to make this my new years resolution and start on it again.
I'll start reading again,
and check in at this post in a couple of weeks.
Good to see m1469 is rethinking it too!

[danny elfboy]

I'm game
I'm recently joined a choir and harmony concepts are becoming exceptional important for me. How do you plan to do this? How do we do through the book together?

I'm not from an english speaking country and have other harmony books
Maybe it would be interesting to compare the difference between harmony books from different countries too (not to mention that from my experience there's no difference between harmony textbooks; they say the same things and just differe a little in the way they say them)

[m1469]

Glad to see that this thread is still living  !!  All of this depends on the purpose that we each want for this kind of knowledge.  I have also recently rejoined my choir and that has been great for my ears.  But, in general, I have a very strong desire for these bits of knowledge to just become more usable, and basically intuitive, for me in my dealings with music.  I want to learn how to use these better as a tool for my art, and not just know them to know them.

So, I suggest that we take something specific, a specific work or set of works and study them with particular aspects of the theory in mind.  Perhaps we should actually strive to attain a score of the examples they are using in the book itself  .

Also, I think it would be most educational if we then each do some composing.  We can use "Finale notepad" a free download of composer's software, and send copies of our work to each other in some kind of organized fashion.  I have done all of this before in a live class, but, for some reason I want to do it all again  .

What do you think ?

There is no reason everybody has to have this exact book.   Actually, I really like the idea of addressing certain issues using several different books (and I even have several myself).


m1469

[danny_sequel]

On amazon I've read mostly negative comments about the Kosta book
The criticism is that there's a sense of "too theorical not applied to the musical world"
and a concertist said that with this kind of material you believe you know harmony until you finally got to work with it and learn that you know the theory but don't know how to apply it musically and have to learn from scratch (this is diffuse problem in music education nowadays)

The second criticism is that it is too verbose and long-winded with too much obsession for the details wich leaves one with a sense of not understanding the world
I think with harmony is better to learn the general concepts and then when they're internalized and have become almost second nature you can start to dwell into exceptions, details and so on

I don't know if the reviews were true but if they're then I think we better think a very condensed manual of harmony, low price that we all can by and straightforward with more example to how harmony theories apply to music both classical and modern

We should focus on one topic per week and this requires something more basics

I have a great trust for the ABSRM Publishing
Their books for piano are great.
The ones divided for grade offer very good choices for all kind of style and the fingering and print quality are all high standard

I found a book by ABSRM that seems exactly what we need as pianists that want to learn the foundations of composition and how music is made

Harmony in Practice

The good thing about the book is that it seems to promote what m1469 was talking about: taking advantage of harmony as a tool for everyday dealings with music and it also got very positive reviews (unlike Kosta book which seems very "old style" ... you the accademic obsolete prolixity

It is also cheap ... while most harmony books cost anywhere between 70 and 120$

What do you think?

[ridr27]

Harmony in Practice

Sounds good to me.
I just now ordered it.

Being in US, not sure how long will take to arrive.

[m1469]

Well, I don't think everybody should need to buy any certain book for this if they already have one of any kind.  Plus the original intent was to go through the kostka, which I think we don't need to change altogether now.  I say let's just use several different ones.  Just use what we have (I am not going to buy another theory book right now when I already have a few different ones; it's just not my priority at the moment).

I think we just need to start !

[ridr27]

m1469...............I hope there are enough people with knowledge to do this.

That is probably not me. 

However I have lots of interets in the subject, and will try and will follow along.
My book is ordered.

Ridr27

[danny elfboy]

Well, I don't think everybody should need to buy any certain book for this if they already have one of any kind.  Plus the original intent was to go through the kostka, which I think we don't need to change altogether now.  I say let's just use several different ones.  Just use what we have (I am not going to buy another theory book right now when I already have a few different ones; it's just not my priority at the moment).

The reason I suggested that cheap book is because you was striving to "learn how to use these better as a tool for my art, and not just know them to know them" and the book by Kosta doesn't meet this criteria as it is too theorical and dislinked by true music in the real world. It does give you a lot of information but doesn't tell you how to take advantage of those information, how to make them inhance your musical skills and how to apply them to your practical playing/composing/singing/harmonizing/accompanying. It's like learning about the circle of fifths and chords construction without being taught how to put in practice such knowledge ... what you should do with it
So you learn and feel nothing has changed, nothing has become easier or suddenly make more sense ... where that's what should have happened.
That's why i suggested Harmony in Practice. Its goal as a new book in harmony is to fill this common gap in almost all Harmony Textbooks so obsessed with details and so lacking in information about practical applications including the ones I have

I think we just need to start !

Okay, well have different books with different order of content
Where do we go from here?
Choose an argument ... and then?

[m1469]

So, danny elfboy you are also danny_sequel

Anyway, I do not believe there is any one magic book in the world that will make everything just click.  Besides that, you are the one who initially said :

Maybe it would be interesting to compare the difference between harmony books from different countries too (not to mention that from my experience there's no difference between harmony textbooks; they say the same things and just differe a little in the way they say them).

I have just counted my FIRST YEAR theory books, meaning that I have a lot more in advanced theory, too, and I have 10, yes, 10  (I collected them from various places ).  I am quite sure that each individual author felt as though they were filling some gap in the world by publishing their own version of the same material, and maybe they indeed were for SOME people, though I am sure not for all.

My basic thought is that if I cannot gather the info that I need from any one, or combination of these 10 books, I better just give up or else I am just simply not trying hard enough.

So yes, my previous suggestion still stands as is; that we pick a topic, however basic, and concentrate on that, accompanied by music for our study.  I think we should start with something very simple, like hymns or chorales (as I have previously stated) for the topic of voice leading.  Does it really matter if we skip around in the books a little ?  I don't think so. 

If I wanted to take an actual course and go through a book from start to finish, I would find a teacher that I liked and then sign up for a class and pay them to teach me.  But, since we don't have that kind of organization here (unless we start an actual class ), I recommend that we stop trying to make everybody who is interested in the SUBJECT, buy the same exact book (especially since some of us already have plenty) and that instead we use the positive and unique opportunity that we have by sharing this online community, and pull from several DIFFERENT resources.  If somebody feels like they have a special perspective to offer the group, either becuase of their own discovery or because the book they have presents something in a great way, all the better !!  That person has something to contribute and feel good about then.

The solidarity of our project will be on the precise subject and in the music we choose to analyze.  We use the music and our individual study in order to find the practicality of the teachings.

So, I suggest we pick a piece and a subject (like voice leading) and begin work.  I also suggest, again, that we include composition as part of our individual study.  It's much more useable if we actually put the concepts into action ourselves through composition.

[danny elfboy]

Anyway, I do not believe there is any one magic book in the world that will make everything just click.  Besides that, you are the one who initially said :

I have just counted my FIRST YEAR theory books, meaning that I have a lot more in advanced theory, too, and I have 10, yes, 10  (I collected them from various places ).  I am quite sure that each individual author felt as though they were filling some gap in the world by publishing their own version of the same material, and maybe they indeed were for SOME people, though I am sure not for all.

My basic thought is that if I cannot gather the info that I need from any one, or combination of these 10 books, I better just give up or else I am just simply not trying hard enough.

Don't be too sure of that
The universal gap of this book is that they provide a lot of theory so that someone mentoring you (either a teacher or a composer) can tell how to apply those information to your playing/composing/musicality and so on

Those books by principles do nothing else by making a shopping list of theory "worth knowing"

That's why they're different from textbooks of Applied Harmony (that may be less heavy on the theory but teach you how to apply those information and start composing or improving your musical and performing skills)

You have bought 10 books of Shopping List Theory Harmony and the info you may be need may just be found on Applied Harmony books

So yes, my previous suggestion still stands as is; that we pick a topic, however basic, and concentrate on that, accompanied by music for our study.  I think we should start with something very simple, like hymns or chorales (as I have previously stated) for the topic of voice leading.  Does it really matter if we skip around in the books a little ?  I don't think so.

If I wanted to take an actual course and go through a book from start to finish, I would find a teacher that I liked and then sign up for a class and pay them to teach me.  But, since we don't have that kind of organization here (unless we start an actual class ), I recommend that we stop trying to make everybody who is interested in the SUBJECT, buy the same exact book (especially since some of us already have plenty) and that instead we use the positive and unique opportunity that we have by sharing this online community, and pull from several DIFFERENT resources.  If somebody feels like they have a special perspective to offer the group, either becuase of their own discovery or because the book they have presents something in a great way, all the better !!  That person has something to contribute and feel good about then.

The solidarity of our project will be on the precise subject and in the music we choose to analyze.  We use the music and our individual study in order to find the practicality of the teachings.

I also suggest, again, that we include composition as part of our individual study.  It's much more useable if we actually put the concepts into action ourselves through composition.

We won't be able to compose anything if the books we have don't explain us how to apply those harmonic knowledge into composing, that's the problem. The difference between knowing an harmonic principle and apply it to compose something is enormous and not straight-forward

So, I suggest we pick a piece and a subject (like voice leading) and begin work.

okay you start
we need some planning
How long do we plan to focus on each topic?
Should we create a new thread just devoted to that topic?
Could that thread start with a summary of the topic we're talking about and proceed with comments, suggestions and ideas? (could you make it, since my english is terrible?)
Are we going to plan a day a week at a particular time to meet in the chat and discuss the topic?
What else?

P.S.

Since I'm probably not the only non-english here let's help others (and me) figure out what we're talking about.
What is voice leading. Has it to do with progressions and cadences or with "melodic motion" vs "harmonic motion"?

Before beginning the voice leading (whatever it is ) I would first study the "voice writing" (narrow vs sparse position, doubling of the tonic/third/fifth and melodic positions)

[shingo]

Hey,

I know this thread has been dead for a while, but maybe someone could help me out with the following question.

Basically, as someone esle stated above, I know enough theory to get me by whilst learning pieces and playing them in terms of key sigs, dynamics etc. But for the amount of time I have been playing I don't know way near as much as I should. Learning these things are just as much in my interest for general knowledge of the underlying mechanics as they are for improving my playing and learning method.

So I had planned to go through the book bit by bit daily sitting at the piano (as I know application and visualisation is important with theory). But as someone else stated "life gets in the way". Now I am narrowed down to a smaller time slot in which idealy I would like to imporve my theory.

My gut descision is just to sit down away from the piano and read it all through picking up as much as possible on first reading so that at least I have achieved something, and then go through again at a later date when I feel I have the time, infront of the piano.

Would this be a complete waste of time? Obviosuly it is not the ideal way to go about things but at the moment my perfect idea of maticulously progressing through the book understanding and noting every aspect whilst getting the hands on at the piano, just doesn't translate to reality and I think I need to do something to get started.


Thanks in advance for any input.