The Myth of Tone

[pizno]

Just trying to get your attention there.  OK, so, I play, I take lessons, I read and I read, and I want to know this.  What the heck is TONE?  I mean, the hammer hits the string.  It hits the string and different speeds.  This is the only difference between piano and forte, right??

So, how does one make the hammer hit the string more beautifully?  More richly? 

What difference does it make, specifically, on the string and hammer if we 'get to the bottom of the key'?  What do we mean by that?

Why do we all think it has something to do with the hand/wrist/arm?

Please, voice all thoughts on this heavy handed subject!

piz

[mike_lang]

Well, first of all - speed, force, and which escapement one plays in (1st or 2nd).  Perhaps the personal combination creates tone. 

[will]

Just trying to get your attention there.  OK, so, I play, I take lessons, I read and I read, and I want to know this.  What the heck is TONE?

Tone:   1. The quality or character of sound.
            2. The characteristic quality or timbre of a particular instrument or voice.

I mean, the hammer hits the string.  It hits the string and different speeds.  This is the only difference between piano and forte, right??

Or an absolute scale for a series of single notes basically, yes.

So, how does one make the hammer hit the string more beautifully?  More richly? 

What difference does it make, specifically, on the string and hammer if we 'get to the bottom of the key'?  What do we mean by that?

See 5 lectures on the acoustics of the piano https://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/

Why do we all think it has something to do with the hand/wrist/arm?

Because we activate the hammers by depressing the keys...

[walking_encyclopedia]

So, how does one make the hammer hit the string more beautifully? More richly?

pizno, try this:

sit at the piano (you're going to use your left hand)

stiffen your arm (very important!), in fact stiffen your hand, and even your fingers, and punch out a 'c' octave, and hold it down. do it again. absolutely as hard as you possibly can.

then once you've done that, scroll down.

this time, take the same hand, and let your elbow relax, your wrist relax, and your fingers not half as stiff. hold your arm at a right angle (away from the piano) and let it drop down. do it over and over again, not using muscle, just let the natural weight of the arm carry it down.

then try this at the piano. instead of stiffening everything like before, let your hand drop down using arm weight, and let your elbow absorb some of the blow, like a shock absorber. keep your wrist relaxed and let it come down slightly farther than the hand does. now don't use a wimpy sound, don't do it softly or anything. get a big sound, drop those fingers into the keyboard and hold them there. if you can't get a big sound, then use more arm weight. let the entire weight of your body behind the arm come dropping down into the keyboard. i can actually get more sound this way then if i stiffen and use my arm muscles.

now see if there isn't a difference between sound. when you stiffen everything and punch out an octave, you get a harsher sound. this applies to chords, single notes, arpeggios, everything in fact. that's one of the things that makes an artist different from another artist.

there's also the entire phrasing aspect to tone, using tiny and unnoticeable crescendos, decrescendos, and accents to compliment tone. but i think i've gone on long enough about arm weight, so someone else can weigh in on phrasing.

hope this helped.

w.e.

[ada]

All of the above reasons account for the biggest weakness of a digital piano compared to an accoustic. It's impossible to get tonal variation out of a digi, because it doesn't have strings.

(If anyone disagrees please let me know!)

If you've played on a digital and then switch to a high quality accoustic you'll understand what tone is. try some of the exercises suggested above on a digital, then try them on an accoustic.

You will be amazed.

[bench warmer]

But what you really need is an independent observer (listener), preferably another musician or someone who also thinks he/she can tell the difference in tone produced. The reason is that you know how you are going to strike the key and you expect a certain tone quality. So maybe what you hear is only what you think you are going to hear.

 One of you sit at the piano and   bang ( impulse ) octaves and chords then use the Weight method. Do this for different octaves & chords and vary your method; jot down the response of the observer.

Now  reverse positions.

Compare the responses you each had And see if there is really a correlation between the method and the tone produced.

I'm not knocking anyone's theory about these methods, I'm just not sure it makes any difference. Once the key starts moving it seems like it's physics that takes over.

[nyquist]

Just trying to get your attention there.  OK, so, I play, I take lessons, I read and I read, and I want to know this.  What the heck is TONE?  I mean, the hammer hits the string.  It hits the string and different speeds.  This is the only difference between piano and forte, right??

So, how does one make the hammer hit the string more beautifully?  More richly? 

What difference does it make, specifically, on the string and hammer if we 'get to the bottom of the key'?  What do we mean by that?

Why do we all think it has something to do with the hand/wrist/arm?

Please, voice all thoughts on this heavy handed subject!

piz

It is a myth.  There is no way to change sound quality without changing volume.   All studies I know of (starting with Ortmann) confirm this.  The true-believers, however, don't believe in studies and keep talking about tone. 

nyquist

[Kassaa]

It is a myth.  There is no way to change sound quality without changing volume.   All studies I know of (starting with Ortmann) confirm this.  The true-believers, however, don't believe in studies and keep talking about tone. 

nyquist

I disagree, you can play at the same volume, but with a different sound. If the difference of sound was only in the volume we could all be listening to midi's instead of real pianists.

[henrah]

Tone only comes about when you listen to a note in a succession of notes. Two pianists playing the same note at the same volume on the same piano will sound exactly the same. However, if you gave them a preceeding and succeeding bar or two, the tone of that single note will sound different.

[mikey6]

It is a myth.  There is no way to change sound quality without changing volume.   All studies I know of (starting with Ortmann) confirm this.  The true-believers, however, don't believe in studies and keep talking about tone. 

nyquist

whaaaa? all you have to do is play with a different part of your finger to change the sound - the tip, the fleshier part, flat fingers - all produce different sounds.  Volume has got to do with how quick the hammer hits the string.  Learn some Schubert and you'll see how many difefrent sorts of 'piano' there are available by changing the energy in the fingers,

[pizno]

Yes I know, I know.  This is how I was taught too.  BUT there is part of me that agrees that it all has to do with the speed in which the hammer strikes the string. Perhaps the pad of the finger applies a slower (softer) motion to the key, and therefore the hammer and strings.  I mean really, how could what part of your finger make a difference?  (At the same time, I believe that it does, but I don't get it, AT ALL!)

Piz

[nyquist]

Yes I know, I know.  This is how I was taught too.  BUT there is part of me that agrees that it all has to do with the speed in which the hammer strikes the string. Perhaps the pad of the finger applies a slower (softer) motion to the key, and therefore the hammer and strings.  I mean really, how could what part of your finger make a difference?  (At the same time, I believe that it does, but I don't get it, AT ALL!)

Piz

The hammer is in free flight for the last 1/8" (or so) before hitting the string.  Physics is pretty unforgiving: the hammer does not know how it got to that speed.  Harmonic content (tone) is solely a function of hammer speed.  (Some people also swear that moving the finger on the keybed after the note has rung affects the sound.)

nyquist

[leahcim]

Just trying to get your attention there.  OK, so, I play, I take lessons, I read and I read, and I want to know this.  What the heck is TONE?  I mean, the hammer hits the string.  It hits the string and different speeds.  This is the only difference between piano and forte, right??

"only difference" is arguable. There's clearly a range of different timbres. Volume isn't the only change.

Sympathetic resonance and the interaction of a group of two or more notes [at the same or different velocities] that sound together [by that I mean their sound is playing at the same time, not necessarily played as a chord] creates a wealth more harmonic variation too. The pedal plays a huge part there. There's the soft pedal too.

Some argue the above is all you get - and if it is, there's a wealth there that belies "only difference". Other studies of the piano have suggested that flex in the hammer matters too.

It's difficult to relate that to technique though - if good tone relates to some arm-weight method book then there's no variance to be had - unless you want to play a passage with bad, possibly injury-forming "stiff" technique? This seems more like promotional material for the method "you won't sound good unless you follow our method"

That leads to the digital arguments. Most of them don't have good or accurate symp res and most only have a small number of samples played at different velocities, 3 or 4 layers, so they've lost before you start worrying about whether there's anything else. Some models are using physical modeling though to recreate those sounds.

As for different part of the finger, no doubt the piano sounds like a trombone if you use a pencil or your nose?

[ramseytheii]

Just for fun, try reading Charles Rosen's essays here:
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/273

and here:
https://www.nybooks.com/articles/214

Unfortunately the original article that spurred the controversy can only be accessed by paying customers, but you get a good idea of it from the letters.

Walter Ramsey

[pizno]

Leachim said:  "It's difficult to relate that to technique though - if good tone relates to some arm-weight method book then there's no variance to be had - unless you want to play a passage with bad, possibly injury-forming "stiff" technique? This seems more like promotional material for the method "you won't sound good unless you follow our method"

This is exactly where I am coming from.  I have been taught by the 'arm weight' method, but recently have had some doubts.  We think it is a meatier, richer sound.  But is it?  I am getting a little weary of the dogmatic approach and am beginning to play  around with different techniques.  It seems everyone these days promotes the relaxed, weighted arm, technique - and they would be stupid not to.  But as to how much it affects the tone - I guess I need more proof. I'm sure the relaxed, loose wrist approach affects the ability to form a graceful, well shaped phrase.  But how about a single chord?  The teacher I had for 15 years said you COULD NOT PLAY A CHORD WITHOUT FLEXING.  Flexing was everywhere.  But what difference could that really make, once the chord is played, who cares what your wrists do?  But another teacher recently said that big chords required high wrists, and an inward motion, and then a lifting motion to release the tension. What the heck.  Teacher A said he did not want to see me do that.  Teacher B says that is the ONLY way to play.  Actually, I now have a new teacher who is willing to explore all of these options.  When I see really good pianists play, Angela Hewitt, Peter Serkin, Steven Hough, I don't see that anyone really flexes into the chords, or really uses their wrists all that much.  They are loose, certainly, but chords seem to be played with straight or high wrists.  I'm rambling, I'm sorry, and I'm going to bed now,

piz

[andyd]

From
www.raeng.org.uk/news/publications/ ingenia/issue12/Dain.pdf

Artists and interpretation of music
A piano consists of a number of primary resonators, the strings,which are driven by hammers travelling at a velocity determined by the pianist. The strings have low surface area and so transmit sound poorly to the air but they are coupled tightly to a secondary resonator, the soundboard. In turn this is coupled to the case, which has its own broadband resonant characteristics and forms a cavity of complex shape in which thewhole system sits. There are only three variables that the pianist’s hands can influence to change piano sound. These are:
●the velocity at which the hammer strikes the string, the loudness
●the time when the hammer strikes the string, and
●the point at which the pianist releases the key, allowing the damper to fall and stop the string vibrating. This determines the duration of sound.
The pianist’s right foot uses the ‘loud’ pedal to raise all the dampers, thus sustaining the sound from the vibrating strings and also encouraging sympathetic vibration in other strings.This produces a greater overall volumeof sound.The left foot operates the ‘soft’ pedal which shifts the keyboard, action, and hammers laterally so that fewer strings are struck and by a softer portion of the hammer surface. The combined effect produces fewer overtones. Additionally,the string that is not struck moves in anti-phase. This lengthens the overall decay time of the sound.The action of a piano serves to propel a hammer towards the strings by means of an escape mechanism.

Once the escapement mechanism has operated, the hammer is in free flight, after which nothing the artist can then do with his hands has the slightest influence on the resulting sound. Some of the more demonstrative performers may sway and massage the keys as if they believed it could make a difference. Although the ear can make only a relatively coarse determination of absolute time and of absolute sound intensity, it is highly sensitive to minute differences in time intervals and successive sound intensity.
Consequently, despite the paucity of control factors, great subtlety can be produced in the temporal change of sound produced. It is the ability to manipulate these factors that separates the great pianist from the amateur. Indeed computers have recently confirmed the findings of makers of piano rolls from an earlier age that different great artists have their own ‘fingerprints’ in the way they do this. Both factors require an extraordinary degree of sensory and muscle co-ordination when one realises that a grand maestro may accurately control hammer velocity to as many as five hundred levels and timing to within half a millisecond or closer.

 
Andy

[bench warmer]

 
pizno,
Blindfold your teacher(s). Play notes or chords or octaves each way. They won't be able to tell which method you use.

If you're not comfortable the way you play, change it and get comfortable.

[lostinidlewonder]

Each piece has its own tone. You can't describe tone musically without referring it to a piece of music. You can however throw scientific jargon which will not help you musically to understand your instrument, but if you want to be a scientist GO FOR IT!!!

[prometheus]

It can only be a myth. The way the hammers hit the string depends solely on the mechanics of the hammers. Not on how you touch the keys. Sure, you can touch the keys hard and soft. But this will only matter in how fast/hard and slow/soft the hammers will hit the strings.

There is no way to change the way the hammers hit the strings. Therefore, there can be no variation in tone. Except of course random variation.

[henrah]

Therefore, there can be no variation in tone.

Not physically and technically. But when you see someone play in a certain way, it has a remarkable effect on how you hear the music.

[allthumbs]

From
www.raeng.org.uk/news/publications/ingenia/issue12/Dain.pdf

Artists and interpretation of music
A piano consists of a number of primary resonators, the strings,which are driven by hammers travelling at a velocity determined by the pianist. The strings have low surface area and so transmit sound poorly to the air but they are coupled tightly to a secondary resonator, the soundboard. In turn this is coupled to the case, which has its own broadband resonant characteristics and forms a cavity of complex shape in which thewhole system sits. There are only three variables that the pianist’s hands can influence to change piano sound. These are:
●the velocity at which the hammer strikes the string, the loudness
●the time when the hammer strikes the string, and
●the point at which the pianist releases the key, allowing the damper to fall and stop the string vibrating. This determines the duration of sound.
The pianist’s right foot uses the ‘loud’ pedal to raise all the dampers, thus sustaining the sound from the vibrating strings and also encouraging sympathetic vibration in other strings.This produces a greater overall volumeof sound.The left foot operates the ‘soft’ pedal which shifts the keyboard, action, and hammers laterally so that fewer strings are struck and by a softer portion of the hammer surface. The combined effect produces fewer overtones. Additionally,the string that is not struck moves in anti-phase. This lengthens the overall decay time of the sound.The action of a piano serves to propel a hammer towards the strings by means of an escape mechanism.

Once the escapement mechanism has operated, the hammer is in free flight, after which nothing the artist can then do with his hands has the slightest influence on the resulting sound. Some of the more demonstrative performers may sway and massage the keys as if they believed it could make a difference. Although the ear can make only a relatively coarse determination of absolute time and of absolute sound intensity, it is highly sensitive to minute differences in time intervals and successive sound intensity.
Consequently, despite the paucity of control factors, great subtlety can be produced in the temporal change of sound produced. It is the ability to manipulate these factors that separates the great pianist from the amateur. Indeed computers have recently confirmed the findings of makers of piano rolls from an earlier age that different great artists have their own ‘fingerprints’ in the way they do this. Both factors require an extraordinary degree of sensory and muscle co-ordination when one realises that a grand maestro may accurately control hammer velocity to as many as five hundred levels and timing to within half a millisecond or closer.

 
Andy

Thanks, for your insightful post and reference to the article you quoted. I read the article with great interest.

It should clear up a lot of misconceptions.


Cheers

allthumbs

[andric_s]

Those studies which suggest that tone is a myth are completely missing the point.  When pianists speaks of tone, we're not referring to a single note reduced to its components and analyzed in a laboratory.  We're talking about music.

The volume, timbre, and especially the timing of preceding and following notes affect the way we perceive a given note.  You could even say that we don't perceive the single note, but rather the phrase.  

All that arm weight, and even moving the finger after the note has sounded, affects the way we play the next note, which affects the way all the notes of the phrase are perceived by the listener.

[lucasdopandeiro]

Hello everybody,

I am a very "science" kind of guy. I am always questioning everything and every idea. So, I always thought that "tone" was a myth.

One thing I know now, is that there isn't yet a scientific study I've come across that really prove that we can procuce different shades of tone (or the contrary).

But, when I hear my professor play the same notes I play on the same piano, I know there is something different there, and not just the volume.

I agree with Chang when he says velocity is not the only variable counting when we play. There is also the _acceleration_  of the hammer. If the hammer starts his "fly" with a high acceleration, it will probably vibrate by himself and transmit that vibration to the strings.

The vibration will then raise the "attack portion" of the note and add some unpleasent harmonics. If the hammer has very little vibration itself, all of the energy on the strings will be converted in vibration with the pleasant harmonics (the harmonics of the string itself).

How do we control acceleration of the hammer? Now that's another story. People say arm weight, some say the opposite, other people say "do lots of Hanon"... One thing I know: whatever you do in the piano, listen to the result and compare to what you were trying to achieve. If you like it, keep it. If you don't, discard.

Some people say that, if you try to eat thinking on every aspect of eating, you will not be able to do it. Use your sensibility on that. Trust your ear and your sense of touch. And be a perfectionist while practicing!

Just my 2 cents (and sorry for my english),
Lucas Reis
 

[prometheus]

Not physically and technically. But when you see someone play in a certain way, it has a remarkable effect on how you hear the music.

I close my eyes when I try to listen to music with all intensity. For example when going to a concert. I mean, the eye is truely the window of the soul. Looking at anything while listening to music distorts the music in my mind. The only way to get your mind calm and empty, ready to receive music, is by closing your eyes.

At least that is my personal experience.


As for people that do thing it is about tone. I also play electric guitar. A guitar is much more similar to a violin. And the violin is an instrument where you cannot hide anything. Your fingers touch the strings directly and there aren't even frets. You are truely naked. On a guitar it is very easy to hear who is playing. I mean, you can recognise people by their vibrato alone.
But with guitars you also have all kinds of different guitar equipments, amplifiers, pickups, etc. My experience is that our brains have a very hard time seperating style from pure tone. I mean, a famous guitarist will sound like he always sounds no matter the guitar. What you hear is independent of tone.
Because of this I have even seen people claim that some people just have the right shape of finger tips to get a good tone out of a guitar. People really think the tone of a guitar changes because a person has a strong style. But really the tone has not changed at all. The person is just a better player.

So for those people that think the piano has a different tone when their teacher play. She or he really is just a better player. The piano still sounds the same as when you press a key. She or he will just press the keys the right way and you confuse this with piano tone.

[lucasdopandeiro]

She or he will just press the keys the right way

Isn't that the same to say "she or he just has a better tone"?

Lucas Reis

[prometheus]

No. I mean the person presses the key at the right moment and with the right force. The tone of the piano will be the same since you cannot influence the way the hammer hits the strings. Did you actually read my posts?

[lucasdopandeiro]

First of all, sorry, no offense here.

Let me give you an example of a difference of tone.

Get a normal person, who is not a pianist. Tell him to play a note, or some notes, pianíssimo. (All right, say "play a very very low volume note"). She will barely play the keys, resulting in a very thin sound.

Now get a good performing pianist and tell him to do the same. He/She is able to play pianíssimo and still make the piano sound. A person in the last seat at the theatre will be able to hear his pianíssimo. Understand?

Lucas Reis

[prometheus]

Of course not. You don't explain anything.

[mike_lang]

Of course not. You don't explain anything.

Ooo... hostility...

My take is that the beginner does not have the same control on attack speed as the advanced student, and so while the beginner may hit the key at the right depth, it may result in a lower quality sound because of a mal-controlled attack.  Sorry, that was a bit of a runon...

ML

[prometheus]

Hostility?

[elevateme]

key = weight, not force

[lucasdopandeiro]

I think I could not express my ideas due to lack of knowledge of the English language.

Not everyone has to know how to argue in English, but everyone should be at least a little polite.

Bye, and nice piano playing to you all.

Lucas Reis

[andyd]

Lucas brings up some good points.  To quote Matthay (The visible and invisible in piano technique: On beauty and ugliness in piano touch 1932)

"...tried to persuade us, musicians, that variations in the degree of loudness were the only possible one, and that we, who insisted we could hear variations in the quality (or timbre) of the tone were suffering from foolish hallucinations...that the hammer, during the last thirty-second of an inch of its journey to the string is thrown at it, and therefore only quantitative inflections were possible; quite overlooking the fact that the string has some say in the matter, and also that we are dealing with an elastic hammer-shank, which, when ill-used, may cause a raking of the hammer-head on the string.......other elements may also contribute - for instance, the key itself lies loosely on the key-frame and may jump.

and later after suggesting trying driving forward a wholly rigid arm versus a lax upper arm while the forearm is exerted downwards in order to hear the different sounds produced, he continues

"To produce the well-sounding effect you must be careful to time the necessary finger-and-hand exertion accurately in cooperation with the arm condition.  It must all be done before it is too late in key-descent to have effect, and the tone must be attained by a proper acceleration during key-descent;  in fact an 'acceleration' at geometrically increasing ratio - a law which applies in piano-touch just as much as in the case of every other exertion the object of which is to provoke Movement, such as rowing, tennis, golf or billiards.  Give a jerk-action and you lose control and power, and at the piano it is the same- or worse"

I believe he is saying tones are attained (partially at least) by the various accelerations achievable during key descent.

Interesting read.

Andy

[bench warmer]

There needs to be some clarification here.

Throughout this thread there are words being used like: Force, Speed of Attack, Weight, Acceleration. They all seem to be used as if they produce different results. They can't.

Weight = Mass x Acceleration       (acceleration = speed of attack)
Force    = Mass x Acceleration
so:
 Force = Weight                  These are identical. There is no differentiation between them.

I think one hears what one expects to hear from a single note or chord, the artistry is how  the notes are integrated by the player to produce music.

[prometheus]

That's what I said. I second that. Don't underestimate this. My experience is that people cannot make the distinction between style of playing and the tone quality of the notes.

[lucasdopandeiro]

Acceleration is not speed.

Speed is velocity, and acceleration is the ratio by which velocity increases.

[bench warmer]

Acceleration is not speed.

Speed is velocity, and acceleration is the ratio by which velocity increases.

I agree with some of that, but not all.  Speed is only rate of change of position with respect to time or mathematically: dx/dt. Velocity is a Vector quantity with both rate of change of pos. with respect to time dx/dt  And rate of change of direction with respect to time dc/dt., where c is some initial direction.

To be very precise, Acceleration is also a Vector; it is indeed the ratio of the change in Velocity with respect to time. But it also has two components : rate of change of either the Velocity's magnitude or rate of change of Velocity's direction. Mathematically it's (dx/dt)/dt + (dc/dt)/dt . If you have either one of those  quantities being non-zero then you do  have acceleration. 

People in this thread have been talking about "speed -of-attack" which has to be Acceleration since at least the direction of the hands or fingers or wrists or all of them are changing during the"attack" So even if your attack has a constant  speed, the direction is changing in time, therefore "speed-of-attack" is acceleration.

If this is confusing, think  about swinging a in a circle bucket which is attached to a rope.  If you swing the bucket with constant Speed you still have Acceleration since you have a change of the Velocity's direction. (dc/dt)/dt is non-zero.

[bench warmer]

Mathematically it's (dx/dt)/dt + (dc/dt)/dt .

That should be d(dx/dt)/dt + d(dc/dt)/dt since its the Rate of change of velocity with respect to the change in time.  So both components have to be changing.

Sorrry about the error

[prometheus]

The string does not know the acceleration that hammer had before it hits the string. It only knows the current velocity with which it hits the string, and thus the force of the hammer.

[Derek]

My take on it is that all that talk about a beautiful tone and the bottom of the key and all that stuff, comprises a set of rather good psychlogical tricks.  If your only parameter for performance is "louder" and "softer," even though that is arguably all you are going to get because of the physics involved, that doesn't leave much room for aesthetic taste and imagination.   

By thinking about all sorts of elaborate physical things and ideas such as "beautiful" and "rich" tone, it will cause your muscles to accelerate the key in much more graduated and careful ways than a simple spectrum of "loud" or "soft," EVEN THOUGH that will be the end result.

So...I don't sit there thinking OH THIS IS ALL HOGWASH.  I sit there thinking, yes, it isn't REALLY true that it changes the tone that much, but it DOES have a good affect on my aesthetic taste as I play the piano.