Adult beginners - progress struggling, pls help!

[bijou]

Hi guys,

I need urgent advice re my adult pupils. They have been learning for about 8 months now from scratch, using Carol Barratt's book for adults. Most are two thirds of the way thro', able to read notes and moving on away from 5-finger position. The book from this point seems to jump in standard (ie the LH is very 'busy') and they are really struggling with hand co-ordination.

1) I am concerned that I am doing sthg wrong as progress seems to be too slow for 8 months and some are beginning to lose heart. I dont want them to give up and stop!! - how long should it take for adult beginners to start enjoying playing real little pieces??Ive got Bastien's Classic Themes by The Masters which I want to get them on to but even this is still stretching it for some of them!

2) Has anyone used this method book before and if so what do you think?

3) Most important, PLEASE could you recommend some pieces/books/exercises I can use for this transition stage - things they would enjoy but NOT HARD. Even basic stuff b4 Gd 1 level would be handy. I really need sthg to supplement this method book.

Any advice regarding adults in their first year of learning piano would be really appreciated. THANK YOU!

[stevehopwood]

I would love to be able to say I have solved this problem. I haven't.

I have taught dozens of them and failed with them all.

Adult beginners I have taught have all suffered the same problems: they expect progress to be too quick; they lack the ability\time to do regular practise; they become dispirited when the latter leads to the former.

Let me know if you find a solution to these difficulties - I will be most appreciative.

Steve 

[bananafish]

I'm a student, though, my mother takes an half hour lesson with me every week. She can read notes, but she hates them. The only thing she likes is something like those fake books showing right hand melody with left hand chord notations (like guitar tabs.) She chooses her own songs and brings them to my teacher, then my teacher sort of does a quick add-ons to the music (she'd add something harder each time, like incorporate chromatic scales, ect.) That's the only way my mom'd enjoy learning, and because she loves all the songs she picked, she learns them rather fast and happy. So, perhaps that's a good way to add confidence to your adult students, and another way to move their hands up and down the piano.

The important thing about learning, I think, is to have them love what they play. Most adult students (like moms and dads) are not really aiming at anything of a career (otherwise, I think they'd have the motivation and would have definitely learnt more than what you described after 8 months). They probably want to entertain their guests at house parties, show-off now and then, so let them play something popular, add your own improv. as you see fit, and gradually increase the difficulty. That way, they should learn faster, and once they get to entertain their friends, both their interest and confidence will grow. Hope this helps.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

As a student, I recommend Schmitt's finger independance excercises. They train finger individuality and will greatly benefit. Hope this helps.

[timothy42b]

When I was much younger, the parent of one of my friends put her kids in piano lessons and tried to learn with them.  She found it impossible to keep up.  I thought it was just lack of discipline, but a few decades later I found myself in the same position.  Though I practised three times as long, and much more efficiently than my child, I had the same problem.  Adults can learn but not with the ease of a child. 

I wonder though if you are using the right metric.  Adults are not going to meet your goals, but they might be meeting their own.  I think if you had me for a student you would be disappointed with how long it takes me to learn a lesson piece well enough to go on to the next, and how quickly I forget.  But I myself can see progress towards my own goals, and it is enough to keep me working.  Children cannot articulate their goals for piano lessons.  They may not even have any.  Adults can, we are verbal enough to talk to. 

[dalm8an]

Only one person mentioned this and I'm kinda surprised. The adult students (IMHO) need to discover the joy of scales, arpeggios, and finger exercises. These can be presented in such a way that they're not drudgery, and the students find out for themselves fairly quickly that these feed their skills in the method and other books, and therefore they move along more quickly enjoying the rewards.

I especially like the Hanon for developing equal finger strength (for which there is MIDI accompaniment if desired), and for its excellent reference for fingering on scales and arpeggios. I start with two-octave scales and arpeggios and go through all the keys. Eventually I add two more octaves for scales and arpeggios, adding arpeggios in contrary motion. We take our time and I do not have them reading the notes from the Hanon on the scales and arpeggios, just using it for reference for fingering.

Then I usually add Czerny Book One for the adults because they're pleasing little pieces that employ what was built with Hanon and the scales/arpeggios.

Without building in the fundamentals we're just sending them to eventual frustration as they try to play more complicated pieces without underlying skills. I don't think the method books are sufficient in themselves to build the fundamentals. They just mention things in passing which the students can intellectually understand, but they don't have enough opportunity to develop the technique in the method book to carry out the pieces.

Just my thoughts.

[whynot]

I liked banafish's reply very much.  I don't have specific repertoire to suggest, I just use whatever I think the students will enjoy and can (almost) play, unless they have requests.  But you specified the hand coordination problem, and I do help a lot of people with that.  It's a new physical challenge, but I don't think that's a big part of it, at least not in the way that it would seem.  I think two other factors are much more significant:  the psychological aspect, because most adult students tried to play as children and failed (at least, in their own judgment), and usually putting their hands together is what did them in at the time;  and what I suspect is the biggest obstacle, the mental coordination, in which the brain needs to have made specific connections to correctly direct the nerve impulses.  If the brain is unclear about how to direct all that traffic, it sends mixed signals and the hands seem very disobedient, although they are perfectly obeying the mixed-up orders they're receiving.  Those neurons have to fire away and literally, physically make new connections between parts of the brain to do this new activity, and they don't get made because students read and play everything hands separately first.   I have the students stop playing separately, just stop completely.  This is difficult!  Everything out in the world works against it, because it's "common knowledge" that we have to play everything HS first, and because if the student is only successful (in his mind) when playing HS, it's hard for him to give that up (understandably).  At this point, I usually teach them BY ROTE something to play hands together.  I don't need to do this with children unless they're unusually discouraged, but as you've noticed, the adults find the difficulties demoralizing, and you have to break the cycle and almost trick them into succeeding.  First, I show them some chords or something in which they use both hands on every beat, so the notes aren't matching but the movements are.  Then a bit of moving RH melody with the LH slow and stable, so the movements don't match anymore.  Then maybe a gently moving LH accompaniment, and they're on the way.  This might all happen in one lesson, or might take several, and I wouldn't push any stage because it's very important that they get physically comfortable and that they experience many combinations.  If it takes a month, so be it, because they will love it; suddenly they're really playing the piano.  When they can go back to written music-- something simpler but in the style of some of their rote pieces-- they will have a physical context in which to understand it and it will make sense to them.

[loops]

Hi!

this is my first post in this forum!!

as an adult learner, with regard to the hands together co-ordination thing,
I found it helpful to think of there being 3 melodies, left hand only, right hand only, and
hands together melody which was "woven"  out of the other two. I would learn one hand really
really well, better than the other one (my right hand is smarter than the left one..but some people will have it the other way around), and then play the better one slowly while the other hand
fitted in.......once I get the third melody in my ears the co-ordination comes really quickly

[pianistimo]

i'm getting into teaching adults again this fall.  am looking forward to it.  as timothy42b said - they can express what they might like to play and u can modify if u have a version too hard.  simply eliminate some notes (white out) or GO TO THE LIBRARY.  there's surprisingly a lot of material just this level in the library.  u can copy it for learning purposes and it just gives them some supplemental stuff - as u were saying.

also, there's some suggestions here for modern types of music (and not so modern) that get the hands moving around.  guess it's sort of like jazz and fake books (although i wouldn't know where to start on the jazz - excepting i bought a book of jazz patterns and was thinking of incorporating it somehow).

anyway:

hot noon in the meadow
the ocean
where the palm tree grows by ALT

one of my adult students wanted to learn beatles songs - so i bought a book of them and was going to arrange them for her.

amy beach stuff ?  maybe rearranged

sonantinas of various sorts

douce plainte (sighing) op. 100  burgmuller
study in A minor op. 100

cecile chaminade had some easy stuff - have to find the pieces

debussy's first arabesque in a simplified version

popular classics - simplified versions of everything!

heller and hovaness  =- mr purple?  things like this would definately develop sightreading abilities.

kabalevsky - game, theme and variation 1

khachaturian - scherzino

lots of mac dowell pieces can be simplified and have beautiful melodies.



i'd also start encorporating a part of the lesson where u plan to play hands together with the teacher.  some duets, some part reading.  u can make duets out of anything.  this gets them concentrating on one hand alone - then switch sides and do the other hand.  (they can tape record the session and play along at home if they want).   just playing A LOT is better than sitting and talking a lot.  sometimes u have to get their fingers moving and keep them moving.

[pianistimo]

to me, theme and variations type of pieces are good, too.  it gives them a chance to start working what they know about rhythm.  often, adults can be just as anxious to start playing as younger students - and u have to start teaching them to feel the beat in their head and figure out where the notes are and sight read the first measure BEFORE they start.  it is a shame to hear an adult play and make a mistake in the first measure.  these things have to be worked out and practiced - to practice how to sight read and play without stopping (taking a slow pace and not being over anxious) and working up to the correct speed gradually.  sightreading a measure ahead is a good idea.  i used to use 4x5 cards and cover up past the point that they could adequately read ahead.  for some they can take in a lot at once, others have to start with reading 1 measure and 1 beat for a week or two.  then add, 1 measure and 2 beats...and so forth.  u use the card to cover up anything past what they need to read - they read it - think about it (time signature, key signature, the notes) - and then play without stopping to that point.

i like to have them play with a lot of finger action when they play slowly .  basically slowly and loudly.  then, as they start picking up speed - i like to have them play softer and softer and faster and LIGHTER.  the louder playing works a little finger dexterity and strength (not that so much strength is needed - but it seems to equalize the finger playing and make it more even.  for instance it is much easier for a beginner to play notes fairly loudly and evenly than softly and evenly.  but, as they gain control - they see that it isn't something that is based on fingers alone - but sometimes on speed.  like riding a bike.  u get some balance by going forward.

[chadefa1]

As an adult beginner, I somewhat understand the frustration of your pupil. Personally, I have found that my teacher sets too low expectations. For example, I had learned half of Bach's Minuet in G (BWV 114) before my first ever lesson. It took me a LOT of work to get these 10 or so bars under my fingers, but I made it. I arrived at the lesson, played it for her and she was very impressed, so we moved to something of that level.

It has now been a year and I'm still playing things of that level, or a little more. That is fine because I realize that I need to build my technique. BUT I'd like her to assign something harder once in a while. For example, I decided to learn the invention #1. It took me probably 15 hours to get it done and some frustration, but now I feel a little more independence in my hands and am very happy I can play it relatively well.

So, I would draw 2 lessons from this:
- Don't start to low: I'd be very frustrated if I was still doing the 5 fingers position after 8 months... I am certain they CAN do something harder. Assign something hard, and then assign things slightly easier until the student has reached the "hard" level. If they are at level 1, assign something of level 2 that they like (they'll struggle) and then work from level 1 to level 2. This achieves 2 things:
        - Makes improvement faster
        - Lets them notice that these pieces are still a bit beyond their ability (ie, they CAN do it, but it takes hard work). But it shows them it's possible and therefore motivates them.
- Assign harder pieces THAT THEY LIKE once in a while

[pianistimo]

good points!

[lostinidlewonder]

I always drill the basic building blocks of music, chords escpecially. From learning simple chord triads you can then make patterns with this chords, eg: if they learn Cmajor they can play it (CEG) all together, C (EG) (EG) C (EG) (EG) like a waltz pattern, C G E G C G E G, all seperated etc etc. Then I would teach them how to play melodies together with these chord patterns in the RH. Once this is mastered you reverse it, make the LH take the melody the RH take the support. You can also apply this to arpeggios and scales.

This is the most basic element of playing with two hands. One hand plays the support the other the melody. I find this is where coordination issues that adults might have difficulties with are challenged. Playing the melody inbetween the chords of the Lh, or together, these syncopations can have a large learning curve, it depends on how you teach and how well you can understand the thought process of your students.

I have taught the Tango "La cumparsita"" from Argentina, anyone can find on the internet https://www.easysheetmusic.com/  has been a good resource for my beginner students who want to play things which actually sound fun and learn about Lh playing chords Rh playing melody.

Also simplified verions of Henry Mancini's Moon River, Baby Elephant walk, Pink Panther are always a gem to teach and very inspiring pieces because they sound so cool. I have taught one student 3 differnt versions of Moon River, each one more technically difficult than the other simply because she loves the piece so much. People might argue spending so much time on just one area is wrong but it definatly is not. The aim is to get a beginner excited about music, if that means you spend a year on one composer studying them to death so be it! The initial tools we learn when we start off learning the piano can be learn from anywhere really. So long you acknowledge the holes in your technique are being filled.

[timothy42b]

From chatefa1 and lostinidlewonder's posts I would isolate one fundamental theme.

Both approaches are successful even though they are quite different.  I think the reason is matching the type lesson to the goal of the student.  Adult students have vastly different goals from children.  (And part of the process is refining and clarifying them.)

[bijou]

Thanks so much guys - this was my first ever post and i cant believe the immediate amount of feedback i have had!
Seems like the challenge re adult tuition is quite a popular topic , so keep it rolling in. The more the merrier 

The easysheetmusic website in particular looks invaluable - so THANK YOU for that as well!! I shall start exploring and arranging! 

[elspeth]

I'm an adult beginner, been playing seriously since September, and came to it with some advantages which by the sound of it your pupils don't in that I already have a very solid musical background on other instruments. However, I think a few things go regardless.

Eight months is a long time still to be on five finger positions. Boredom is one of the biggest things to avoid, and they aren't going to progress if you don't challenge them and let them. And while I appreciate how useful good tutor books are, you have to be a bit careful. As a child learning instruments I hated tutor books with a passion, never found any I could get on with, I preferred to play 'proper' music and take my lessons from that, and that's still the way I learn best. It's not good to assume you can use the same method book with every adult beginner and expect they'll get on with it.

Have you asked them what they want to play? Even if they come up with pieces that are clearly far beyond them at present, it will give you pointers on composers and pieces to choose that will eventually get them there. One of the the good things about adult beginners over children is that they can understand long-term goals. My teacher nearly fell over in shock when she found she had a pupil who independantly adores Bach...

One of the things my teacher does which I love is, when she wants to start me on something new, will pick three or four pieces which are appropriate, play them for me, and then we learn the one I like best. She gets to teach me music that will be useful and I get to play music I like.

Encourage them to go to concerts for inspiration. I'm very lucky, I work in theatres and concert halls so get to do this anyway, but your nearest library should be able to supply you with listings for your local halls and theatres. Your local music college and churches are also good resources. It's a great way to keep students focussed on what they can achieve, and to discover new music they might like to aim for. It can also be really useful for technique to see a good pianist in performance, so if you can work out which seats in the concert hall will directly overlook the keyboard it's good. Possibly you could send them to a concert together? They can have a night out and they may even make friends and help each other!

Lastly, you MUST ask them regularly about their practise habits and make them responsible for doing it. Partly so you know they are doing it, but also so you know they're doing it productively and well. Adults who've been out of education for a while will have forgotten what it's like to have homework and may never have been taught good study habits in the first place. A diary can be very useful, write down what they need to practise each week. Do ask them regularly how much they've practised this week - and if the answer is 'I did an hour every day' that's great but if the answer is 'I didn't because work or family commitments took over' you have to let that go, as long as it's not every time, obviously. One of the first conversations I had with my teacher about this was to explain that I work very long, very antisocial hours, so most weeks practising's fine but some weeks it just doesn't happen and that's life.

Keep going with them, they will improve, it'll just take them a bit longer than the timescale you're used to with children!

[pianoandviolin]

You may want to look at Igor Strawinsky's Les Cinq Doigts, 8 pieces which are basically for 5 fingers but very nice and not that easy. If they like this type of music, at least it would bring them away from very simple music. You could add or mix with other pieces that require different skills.

[bernhard]

Have a look here for a general approach to teach adults (and everyone else as well) that will ensure quick progress (quick as in reaching ABRSM grade 8 level pieces in 1 – 2 years):

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2260.msg19270.html#msg19270
(Dear Bernhard thread – Pieces leading up to the revolutionary)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2500.msg21577.html#msg21577
(Teaching adults)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3524.msg32403.html#msg32403
(adults learn faster than children)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,143.msg35967.html#msg35967
(differences in learning/teaching children and adults).

The gist of it is: Teach only pieces the student loves and wants to learn.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.