Hamburg Steinways vs NY Steinways

[The Tempest]

Has anyone here ever had the pleasure of playing Steinways manufactured in both Hamburg and NY? If so, tell us about it.


I've noticed that the Hamburg Steinways are much more superior to the NY ones. The sound is more round and warm and the touch is considerably better (perhaps because the action is purchased from Renner). The NY sound is a bit more flat but better suited for modern musics.

[steinwaymodeld]

Apparently nobody knows enough to ansewr you tempest, or they just simply ignore this topic

anyway
you know my comment on both right?

in the end, FAZIOLI RULES!!!! WOOOHOOO!!!!

[Hmoll]

I've played various models of NY and Hamburg side by side. I've always preferred the sound and action of the NY Steinways. The NY Steinway has always sounded richer, more complex sound - with more overtones.
That is my preference, and that does not mean Hamburg Steinways are in anyway inferior. Hamburg Steinways have a more "European" sound - not as many overtones, not as rich, more singing.
Steinway  - Hamburg - outsourced their actions to Renner, and they are very good. The actions of NY Steinways made in Astoria Queens are somewhat different, but since they are Steinway, they are just as good.

Btw, I've played a few Faziolis, and am not too keen on them as a whole. They look great, and perform admirably, but lack character. Also, without exception, the 10' models I've played have a disturbing reverberation in many of the bass notes.

[The Tempest]

Hrm.... well it's a matter of preference, then.

Well anyway, Hamburg Steinways are shinier, and you can't resist that.


Anyway, I like Faziolis the best.

[Axtremus]

I have always found Steinway pianos very inconsistent on how they sound (call it inconsistency, or call it "each piano has its personality," they are the same thing with Steinways). At least the NY Steinways appear that way to me.

But comparing NY Model D to Hamburg Model D, I have played a few new NY D's and only one very old, rebuilt Hamburg D. For what it's worth, I found the NY D has more projection power and sounded more "thick" and "solid," while the Hamburg D was warmer and rounder in tone, more colourful, and gave a very nice "blend" when you have multiple criss-crossing melodic lines and motives going on in a piece. In a smaller hall (say less than 200 seats), I think I will prefer the Hamburg D.

Then again, in the small room that I tested the Hamburg D, there sat a 9'2" Fazioli F-278 and I thought the F-278 was too bright and too "sterile," too "industrial-strength," and lacked "warmth." In that small room, I preferred the Hamburg D.

In a very big hall though, I think I will likely pick a NY D or an F-278 to get the projection power of these instruments.

[Hmoll]

 too bright and too "sterile," too "industrial-strength," and lacked "warmth."

Exactly how I would characterize Faziolis.

[krenske]

Having gone through the Steinway showrooms in Hamburg and New York, spending time on all the Model D's, I would like to offer the following.

Firstly in New York. First a room of several D's. Then two D's that were going straight to Carnegie Hall. Then I was led to the basement (where horowitz played). Asking "are there any better ones", was led to an upstairs room with just two D's, one of which was very beautiful. Still asking for another piano, I was led to the foyer, with the Most Beautiful Piano I have ever played.

Hamburg: Similar situation, different accent. In both Steinway Halls there was a huge range of D's to suit many tastes, and one or two which I think anyone would say were in a class of their own.
This is why I think its hard to compare the two based on instruments in one's home city, given the original variance in the pianos as well as the fact that a piano is also a measure of the Piano Technician and the Acoustics.
Ive played a line-up of concert grands in the Paris "Salon de Musique" including Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai, Fazioli, and smaller US and Euro factories. However, same situation... I think one would need to tour the factories to find a piano to suit one's personality.
If choosing a piano for myself, I would hedge my bets and buy a ticket to NY, and search the factory there.
Having said that, when playing a concert in an unknown hall, I would rather know that a Hamburg D was there!

[Steinwayman]

Regarding Hmoll 's statement above:

" The actions of NY Steinways made in Astoria Queens are somewhat different, but since they are Steinway, they are just as good. "
 
Well, this just doesn't stand to reason. Steinway made some disastrous changes to their NY action in the 1960s and later, with some shoddy workmanship seen in the NY actions even after the design changes had been rectified in later years.  Renner has always made a consistently excellent action without any of the design infelicities (e.g., teflon bushings) that marred the NY action.  This is one of the reasons a lot of American concert pianists like John Browning and others refused to buy American Steinways in the 1960s and 1970s, buying Hamburg instruments instead. Even today, I'm sorry to report, the New York instruments occasionally have serious action problems, like the wrong size hammers being installed at the factory and other things like that.

Regardless of which instrument you prefer musically--and I do agree with Hmoll's assessment of the musical differences, by and large--there is little question that purely from the standpoint of QUALITY of construction the Hamburg instruments have  been superior to their NY counterparts for at least 40 years.

Incidentally, the list of pianists who preferred the Hamburg to the NY (and owned one or more as their personal piano) includes Rubinstein, Pollini, Zimerman, Ashkenazy, Michelangeli, Brendel, and Perahia. These were or are are all pianists who could have just about any piano they wanted.

[dinosaurtales]

Just out of curiosity, Steinwayman, do you know if the NY factory is union labor?  What about Hamburg?

[Hmoll]

Steinwayman,

You're right about the action problems from a few decades ago. I though they were pretty much taken care of, though.

Also, of the pianists you mentioned that prefer Hamburg instruments, all but one is European. It stands to reason that European pianists will prefer instruments that hace a more "European" sound.

[Hmoll]

Just out of curiosity, Steinwayman, do you know if the NY factory is union labor?  What about Hamburg?

Don't know about Hamburg, but S&S in Astoria, NY is 100% a union shop.

[dinosaurtales]

That's what I would have guessed, given what I saw when I shopped.

[Hmoll]

That's what I would have guessed, given what I saw when I shopped.

I sure what your preconceptions are about unions, but there are a lot of variables to comsider when shopping.

One of them is the fact that NY Steinways, although they are my favorite pianos, are very poorly prepped when they leave the factory.

[dinosaurtales]

I am sure I can't say what I am thinking without it coming out badly, BUT, I am well aware of the poor condition of Steinways from the factory.  I looked at LOTS of Steinways when I was shopping and was very disappointed by the lack of consistency among them.  Dealers danced around all the issues with a *we can make it whatever you want* stance, which I know must be very expensive  for the dealership to take on (basically rebuilding various parts of the piano, from what I can tell), but I think they'd never sell another Steinway if they didn't.  

Let's just say I asked about the union thing as part of my *survey* of basic business (I have worked in a variety of businesses over the years, some union, some non-union, some non-profit).  And I have developed some opinions about various *organization types* for lack of a better term based on what I see in the types of workers that *like* the various forms, vs. the resulting product.  The Steinway product is consistent with my survey.

[Hmoll]

I am sure I can't say what I am thinking without it coming out badly, BUT, I am well aware of the poor condition of Steinways from the factory.  I looked at LOTS of Steinways when I was shopping and was very disappointed by the lack of consistency among them.  Dealers danced around all the issues with a *we can make it whatever you want* stance, which I know must be very expensive  for the dealership to take on (basically rebuilding various parts of the piano, from what I can tell), but I think they'd never sell another Steinway if they didn't.  

Let's just say I asked about the union thing as part of my *survey* of basic business (I have worked in a variety of businesses over the years, some union, some non-union, some non-profit).  And I have developed some opinions about various *organization types* for lack of a better term based on what I see in the types of workers that *like* the various forms, vs. the resulting product.  The Steinway product is consistent with my survey.

Dealers do not do rebuilds of new pianos - S&S or others. Rebuilds cost between 15K-20K US$. What dealers do is have their technicians prep instruments they sell, and prepping can work wonders with sound and feel of a piano.

Keep in mind, pianos are not like cars. Whatever make you are talking about, there are still variations between instruments of the same make and model. That is true of Bechsteins, NY Steinways, Hamburg Steinways, Estonias, etc.

[dinosaurtales]

Hm.  That's true for sure, but I did notice significanly more variability among Steinways than the others.  I was leery enough to not consider one.

[Hmoll]

Hm.  That's true for sure, but I did notice significanly more variability among Steinways than the others.  I was leery enough to not consider one.

I think that's because there is much more variation among NY Steinways in how they are prepped upon leaving the factory.

If you really want an eye opener, you should play a new NY Steinway D that has just been delivered to a concert hall, and compare that to one just purchased by a regular Joe.

[dinosaurtales]

Hmmmmm  Are you suggesting that the concert hall will get *special* or *preferential* treatment, i.e. better instruments, compared to me (who would be *regular Joe* in this scenario).

You are making me really glad I got the Fazioli now!

[Hmoll]

Hmmmmm  Are you suggesting that the concert hall will get *special* or *preferential* treatment, i.e. better instruments, compared to me (who would be *regular Joe* in this scenario).

You are making me really glad I got the Fazioli now!

Not necessarily better instruments, just much better prep.
Sorry, by instead of "reagular Joe," I should have said individual consumers.

[dinosaurtales]

Either way it still stings.  Those pianos are expensive!  I was looking at B's.

[Babcock]

Are you aware that the best D's are not sold but placed in Steinway's Concert Division?  These are the ones that artists can choose for recording and concerts.  They are, generally, not for sale until they are retired.  So, average Joe and average concert hall and/or orchestras can purchase great D's, but the greatest, Steinway, wisely, keep, and maintain.  Their reputation depends upon them.

[dinosaurtales]

I personally think that's pathetic that a company of Steinway's supposed *reputation* is incapable of consistently making good pianos (if I read that post correctly).  Another reason why I didn't buy one!

[Babcock]

I don't think that there can be absolute consistency in any piano company.  I've performed on Bösendorfers that were not the greatest; the same with Bechstein and Steinway.  All the Steinways I've played have been good, only there are the great ones, as there are in any company's pianos.  When one is dealing  with handcraftsmanship using wood, it is impossiable to re-create perfection time after time.  On a mass-produced instrument, one can achieve a high level of quality, but the gems never appear.  It all comes down to personal taste.  If you prefer the sound and feel of a piano other than Steinway, that's great.  Variety is a good thing.  We all need to appreciate the sounds of these great instruments.

[Axtremus]

When one is dealing  with handcraftsmanship using wood, it is impossiable to re-create perfection time after time.

Yet the price of perfection is charged time after time.