Dove Sono -- The Marriage of Figaro -- Mozart

[m1469]

Okay, I just sang this last night and used my little minidisc recorder to record it.  

[pianistimo]

u have a wide vibrato in the high range - thus making the sound quite uncontrollable.  it's noticably louder in the higher ranges (and yet u sing quite beautifully there).  sorry to be double-tounged, but my amateurish crit would be to work the lower range MORe and yet, to pull back now in the treble.  equalizing both.  not sure how this is accomplished.  u have a talent for singing!  are u sort of betwixt the two or u are comfortable doing both piano and voice?  great if u are.  u can teach two things! really nice.

here's another rather amateurish crit - i think u could use some help with the diaphram even though u are amazingly good in the high range.  usually people have the OPPOSITE problem.  good in the low range and terrible in the high.  letting the air out slowly is easy for u in the high range - but harder in the mid and bass - if i am thinking correctly.  gruffalo and others may be able to discern much better.  my husband thinks that it's more the range (tessitura) and that working that is important.

i hear less vibrato in the mid and lower and was wondering what would cause that?  just like with piano - u want to start melding ur sounds together so they are unified.  but, easier said than done.  i can't sing period.  well, i can sing on pitch - but i have a very very soft voice.  more like what people do when they want to sing 'behind' someone.  i sing alto and not much soprano range.  i don't have ANY vibrato but i have a sort of clear sound. 

u have a very VERY clear sound with vibrato.  it's pleasant to listen to and sounds professional.  hope u don't think i'm trying to be a 'know it all' because i've not been that helpful to vocalists except to repeat what the vocal coaches tell me to tell them (warm them up, have a few start their rep, and give hints as to approaching the international phonetic alphabet with some words (am terrible still on foreign language and rely a lot on the coaches), but i'm good with rhythm, interpretation, and stage presence.  u have obviously, the understanding to do professional coaching as u do ur own lessons and keep learning.  that's a good income, too!

[pianistimo]

this is really unfair - but i listened to cecilia bartoli and sort of compared her dove sono and she does more lip smaking and extravagant preparation for the beat (instead of waiting for the beat) with her natural italian instincts.  u can hear the spit hit the sidewalk, if u know what i mean.  u can hear on the cd that her mouth is working into the consonant on the beat by preparing just slightly ahead. which is HARD.  maybe this seems too forward at first - but when u think about the audience really hearing the words and understanding what they are - u need those consonants.  it's like she half speaks and half sings.  that's what seems to equalize those lower notes and the consonants that, imo, are just a little too soft at the beginning of words and phrases. 

www.opuscds.com/mp3/199682.mp3

[pianistimo]

was just reading up on some things and i am beginning to think u might accidentally be using diaphramatic vibrato.  the reason i think this is that sometimes i hear the notes w/out vibrato for a second or two and then the vibrato comes in when ur diaphram is fully engaged.  this would also account for u not having the vibrato in the lower range.

what they suggested on this one thread was to practice the 'hiss' (as many vocalists do to control the breath going out slowly).  then to sing naturally as u can, reproducing the same feeling as the 'hiss,' and also having maybe less vibrato but in ALL ranges and allow it to naturally grow instead of force it here and there.

it would be good to hear from gruffalo on this one and probably some others who are professional vocal people.

[jlh]

I think it sounds great m1469!  I won't go and make this post a singing lesson or anything, but a few things I noticed are:

I could use more consonants and schwa'd releases on the words to make the text more clear in a room that swollows everything you sing.

Your vibrato is somewhat inconsistant and at times it seems it consumes or distracts from the music.  I'm not saying it sounds bad at all, but you have a tendency to, when the vibrato kicks in, put a cresc on everything -- sometimes to the point of breaking the musical line because for the next note you sing you reset your voice back to where you started.  If you cresc, that's fine, but keep the volume going until the musical line suggests a change, or don't cresc so much.  This may be happening because when you find a comfortable placement for your voice, you sing comfortably, which is good.  The problem might be that when you change vowels or consonants you lose placement and then have to find it again?  If that's the case, I would work on doing things that help you keep placement no matter what your mouth is doing.

This song seems to have more moods to it than you seem to allow it to have.  I don't know the song very well, but that's my initial impression.

pianistimo, I'm unsure what you mean about a diaphramatic vibrato, since the diaphragm is involved with every part of singing. 

You have a wonderful voice!  I'd love to hear more sometime!

[pianistimo]

yes.  i probably shouldn't post on vocal stuff - because i just hear what i personally hear and it may not be what a vocal coach would say at all.  my husband (who is a baritone) seemed to think it was just needing to work on tessitura.  he's usally right.

with people who accidentally use diaphramatic vibrato - they are actually using a little quiver of the belly to produce a similar sound to an actual vibrato.  because mayla's sound is not sounding 'fake' - i'm probably way off.  but, what i couldn't figure is how it comes so easily in the high range and lesser on the low range.  it might just be, as u and my husband seem to indicate - a need to just keep singing a lot and increase the tessitura.

my husband learned in college (took vocal lessons) and just practiced all the time.  he also took every opportunity he could to sing (usually for free) for all occasions.  it's so easy to get discouraged and quit when u know u have to work on things - butm1469seems undeterred, too.  it's really nice when u reach the stage (that she has and others have) when the voice is nice for others to listen to and they ask for more. 

[m1469]

Well, thanks for your responses.  I have been waiting to reply because I have not quite known how to say what I have to say without feeling like I am being rude.  Pianistimo, I plainly disagree with almost everything you have said.  I have listened to this very recording over several times to hear some of the things that you are talking about, but have not found them.

I happen to have quite a strong lower range, and if that was not evident to you in this recording, than the recording itself (or my singing on this particular evening) simply does not reflect what is actually true.  So on that note, I do not plan to work more on my lower range than I already do, nor do I plan to pull back on anything at all, unless my teacher advises me to do so.

As far as my vibrato is concerned, I actually have no idea why you would suggest that I have a "wide" vibrato.  Frankly, I have heard wide vibratos before and I don't believe I fall into that category.  Perhaps you were looking for a different word ?  As far as your perspective is concerned, you have indicated that you do not hear my vibrato in my lower range, which is simply not true.  On the lowest note of the piece, the "D" just above middle "C", it is there.  And it is there throughout.  If I were to try to pinpoint where it is "missing" it would have more to do with rhythm than anything else.

I did notice that on sustained notes (which are often in the upper range) I generally do tend to let it out more than on moving notes.  However, what jlh has commented on, as far as it being inconsistent and even distracting from the music at times, I am willing to consider with my teacher.  I did also notice that on sustained notes in the middle of phrases, I crescendoed... a musical decision I will need to "deal with".

I am thinking more about this :

sometimes to the point of breaking the musical line because for the next note you sing you reset your voice back to where you started.  If you cresc, that's fine, but keep the volume going until the musical line suggests a change, or don't cresc so much.  This may be happening because when you find a comfortable placement for your voice, you sing comfortably, which is good.  The problem might be that when you change vowels or consonants you lose placement and then have to find it again?  If that's the case, I would work on doing things that help you keep placement no matter what your mouth is doing.

I am not sure what you mean by "placement".  I am sure this is a very common term, however, I have an uncommon amount of ignorance regarding all of this, compared to what people may think I (should) know.

This song seems to have more moods to it than you seem to allow it to have.  I don't know the song very well, but that's my initial impression.

This is perceptive, and most likely an affect of the fact that I really have no idea what I am actually singing about  .

I have noticed that of late, I prefer singing in my upper range over my lower range and have spent more time up there because it gives me a great thrill to do so  .  However, all through school and for a couple of years afterward, I actually sang alto (and sometimes even tenor) in choir. 

Pianistimo, as far as the excerpt that you pulled of Cecilia, she is singing the recitative to this aria, not the aria.  So, what you are hearing as far as her spoken-singing is a characterstic of the style.  However, I agree with jlh in that I need to be clearer with my consonants and as you mentioned in your first post, I need to prepare earlier so my vowels are occuring on the beat.

Overall, I don't know that I have ever been this inspired at singing... and I have certainly never critiqued any kind of singing as in depth as I have here, as a result of both of you posting what you have.  So,  thanks once again ... and most likely, you WILL be hearing more of me  .


m1469

[whynot]

I enjoyed listening to this very much.  Nice job, m1469!  I must say that I was puzzled by the critiques.  For one thing, there is no such thing as diaphragmatic vibrato, as it is physically impossible to directly control the diaphragm.   A lot of faulty voice teaching is based on misunderstanding what we can and cannot control in the body.  The closest she could come to that would be, I guess, deliberately inducing hiccups.  Maybe the comment meant something more like generating vibrato from abdominal muscles, but that would produce a pretty different sound from what m1469 is making.  And the vibrato is not wide!  Wide compared to whom?  It sounds warm and healthy.  It is a bit more pronounced on the bigger singing, which means it (the vibrato) is fulfilling its main function:  to balance and protect the vocal mechanism when more demands are put on it, such as loud singing and high sustained singing.  Overall, it's pretty consistent.  When you hear it go in and out a bit, the voice just needs to keep spinning forward (in terms of energy and momentum) so the phrase drives all the way to the end-- ideally feeling the high point or arrival on the last accented syllable.  I think you could just experiment with basically doubling the length of the phrases in your mind, in terms of energy and crescendo, and then just notice whether you are letting the voice go "dead" on moving notes-- maybe see if you can keep it alive every single moment, if you know what I mean.  But really, the voice is working beautifully.     

It was suggested that the aria has many more moods, but it doesn't.  The recit actually does-- it's all over the place, but that's not the part she sang here (m1469, sing the recit!).  The slow half of the aria is a question (a pretty sad question) and the fast half is her wistful yearning that her own faithfulness would bring back her man.  That's about it.  I like the slow section quite a bit slower, and would be willing to hear several more breaths in exchange for the extra drama of a slower tempo.     

(m1469) "Placement" is used by many people to express many different things.  It's most commonly used to refer to the sensation of where our voice is resonating the most in a given moment.  For example, when people say "forward placement," they usually mean to sing in a way that we experience the most resonance in the front of the face (they call this "the mask" or have you touch your nose and related bones and feel the vibrations).  Not that the poster was talking about this particular placement, I'm just offering a generic and common example.  It is, of course, really important to resonate in the right place at the right time for the vocal activity, but there are lots of ways to talk about this.  Your teacher is evidently talking about it in other ways, which is fine.  I understand what the placement post was saying, but I don't agree that that's what is at play at those points in the recording.  I hear it very much as a phrasing issue.       

I could understand the Italian very well.  You don't need to spit to be understood, as has been suggested.  I have never been able to get on board with the spitting school of diction.  A prominent diction coach whom I believe you know also shuns this phrase and prefers to talk about "pronouncing well," which you are doing.  The "t"s could be more dental, and the "a" vowel (that's the wrong "a" but I don't know how to do IPA on my computer) could be brighter, more "sunny Italian" sounding.  All in all, lovely job on a very difficult aria.  I like the bigger Mozart characters in your voice.  No soubrette for you, m1469!

[jlh]

I must say that I was puzzled by the critiques.  For one thing, there is no such thing as diaphragmatic vibrato, as it is physically impossible to directly control the diaphragm.   A lot of faulty voice teaching is based on misunderstanding what we can and cannot control in the body.  The closest she could come to that would be, I guess, deliberately inducing hiccups.  Maybe the comment meant something more like generating vibrato from abdominal muscles, but that would produce a pretty different sound from what m1469 is making. 

I agree.  I've never heard of a "diaphramatic vibrato" before, and I've been singing a long time.  The diaphram is simply too big to move fast enough to produce anything resembling a vibrato.  Even if it could, it would be an unhealthy sound that is produced and I don't hear anything unhealthy in m1469's singing that would suggest that.

It is a bit more pronounced on the bigger singing, which means it (the vibrato) is fulfilling its main function:  to balance and protect the vocal mechanism when more demands are put on it, such as loud singing and high sustained singing.  Overall, it's pretty consistent.  When you hear it go in and out a bit, the voice just needs to keep spinning forward (in terms of energy and momentum) so the phrase drives all the way to the end-- ideally feeling the high point or arrival on the last accented syllable.  I think you could just experiment with basically doubling the length of the phrases in your mind, in terms of energy and crescendo, and then just notice whether you are letting the voice go "dead" on moving notes-- maybe see if you can keep it alive every single moment, if you know what I mean.  But really, the voice is working beautifully.   

That's what I meant by the musical line comment.  Thanks for the clarification!     

It was suggested that the aria has many more moods, but it doesn't.  The recit actually does-- it's all over the place, but that's not the part she sang here (m1469, sing the recit!).  The slow half of the aria is a question (a pretty sad question) and the fast half is her wistful yearning that her own faithfulness would bring back her man.  That's about it.  I like the slow section quite a bit slower, and would be willing to hear several more breaths in exchange for the extra drama of a slower tempo. 

I shouldn't have made that comment about the moods.  sorry!  As I said, I'm not that familiar with this specific recit and aria so please disregard the comment about the moods.  You sang it beautifully! 

I did notice that on sustained notes (which are often in the upper range) I generally do tend to let it out more than on moving notes.  However, what jlh has commented on, as far as it being inconsistent and even distracting from the music at times, I am willing to consider with my teacher.  I did also notice that on sustained notes in the middle of phrases, I crescendoed... a musical decision I will need to "deal with".

The crescendos are fine.  My comment about them had more to deal with what happens after you crescendo in a few places... when in my mind I'm expecting a continuation of the level of volume through a few of the notes it seems like in places you cresc and then pull back on the next note.  That has also to do with the placement comment.  Perhaps it's not voice placement that's at work, but maybe it is.  My perception was that on the notes where you cresc, that you've found a good place in your voice for that note, and that's great.  In the places where you pull back on subsequent notes (granted the music probably calls for a reduced volume at times, I don't have the score), frequently you stop the vibrato and the note begins for a few seconds in a pure tone, which naturally makes the placement of the voice change (even ever so slightly) and the volume is naturally reduced.  I would suggest experimenting with pushing forward through some of those moments and continuing the vibrat so that the line has more continuity. 

[kelly_kelly]

I don't think the vibrato is wide either (many of my friends sing, and I play viola). However, in Pianistimo's defense, she may not have heard many different types of vibrato. I do feel that your higher range is stronger, and your vibrato is more pronounced there (that's what I heard from the recording, sorry if it contradicts your statements). Overall, it was enjoyable to listen to though   

[pianistimo]

i've played for choirs since hs so i've heard all kinds of singers.  but, as i said, i personally don't sing - so take my words with a grain of salt.  my husband simply felt that tessitura was something to work on.  sometimes when u just practice singing relaxed, period, good things happen.  sorry if i was off on the diagnosis.  obviously u want vocal coaching by a coach and not a pianist.  i just put in my own 'ears' which can be wrong.

according to this following thread - there IS a mistaken vibrato that is controlled mostly by the diaphram  (but, as pointed out, is not the 'true' vibrato) and perhapsm1469is NOT doing this. https://p222.ezboard.com/fdaringdivapre20thcenturyartsong.showMessage?topic=617topic

hmm.  i have to work on this thread because it's not working.  anwya - if u google 'diaphramatic vibrato' u'll get something about a 'false vibrato' much like when u sing 'hahahaha'  or 'hohohoho'  but it would seem that it would take more effort than the natural - so most people wouldn't be likely to use it long-term because it's just too much effort.  sometimes, the best way to get natural singing - from what i heard from one vocal coach is to put ur chin down slightly (so that the back of the neck is straight with spine) and feel a string pulling up ur whole frame to the top of ur head (imagining ur a marionette).  take a deep breath in - and u can feel wide open spaces to breath.  ok.  that's all i know.  yodel or something.  it's nice to hear the natural voice.  and, i do like ur voice mayla.  hope u find more ideas from ur coaches.  u know - the cheapest way to get the farthest is to join a chorale.  they are fun, too.

[jlh]

according to this following thread - there IS a mistaken vibrato that is controlled mostly by the diaphram  (but, as pointed out, is not the 'true' vibrato) and perhapsm1469is NOT doing this.  www.p277.ezboard.com/fdaringdivapre20thcenturyartsong.showMessage?topic=617topic

The link doesn't work.

[pianistimo]

oh.  forget the link (unless u want to google 'diphramatic vibrato' and click on the fourth or fifth link down - with ezboard in it).  here's a mini vocal lesson from a pianist.
Yodl-Ay-EEE-Oooo

now.  asi understand it.  there's head voice and chest voice.  now, if u can get the same dynamics and sound in both - ur quite an experienced yodeler.  if u sing the EEE Oooo in head voice and everything else in chest and people think it sounds good.  u pass.  if u can't.  ur fired.  this is my pianists lesson in voice.

now.  as far as cecelia bartoli.  forget that example all together.  she was singing a recititive don't u know.  i knew that!  anyway - she's good looking and that's all that seems to matter anyway.  so.  i toldm1469she was good looking.  why is she all mad at me now?

for a few new names:  franz lang, stephanie hertel, zillertaler schurzenjager, ursprung buam, mary schneider - to name a few proficent yodelers. 

[pianistimo]

ok.  no more posting on vocal threads.

[jlh]

oh.  forget the link (unless u want to google 'diphramatic vibrato' and click on the fourth or fifth link down - with ezboard in it). 

After reading a bit about the term "diaphragmatic vibrato", it seems it is actually a tremolo, and not a vibrato.  A vibrato to the ears is a slight variation of the pitch, whereas a tremolo is a variation of volume.  m1469 is definitely using healthy vibrato and not tremolo. 

You also mentioned posture in one of our last posts.  It is usually easily evident in the quality of the voice whether one has good singing posture or not.  I didn't hear anything that would suggest a poor posture.  Also, I really don't think tessitura is something on which m1469 needs to especially work.  I think a point could be made that there needs to be better control in certain areas of her voice, but in reality that could be said of any of us.

While yodelling might be able to help with certain things, it is not by any means a measure of one's ability to sing well classically.

[pianistimo]

you're probably right about the diaphramatic vibrato being a tremolo.  i don't know why they don't call it that - but it is a sort of vibrato which may or may not occur -depending on the whim of the singer - whereas a true vibrato is always there because it happens naturally whatever notes are sung. 

[teresa_b]

I love Mozart, and while I am not a vocalist, I know what sounds good--and you did!  You kept it light and clear, and your intonation sounded really excellent.  Thanks for posting this, m1469.  I enjoyed your singing very much.   

Teresa

[whynot]

I'm sorry to be awkward about this, Pianistimo, but you seem determined to give a voice lesson in this situation, and you are passing along incorrect information about classical singing.  I have seen excellent, astute comments from you on many piano matters and am convinced of your knowledge and skills in those areas.  I could keep going point-to-point with your posts, but I think instead I will clear the way for other comments on m1469's fine performance.  Please feel free to PM me if you wish.
     

[jayanat]

ohhhhh, i didn't know you could sing. 

[m1469]

Thanks for weighing in, jayanat  .  

And thanks everybody for your comments and critiques .

[berrt]

Thank you for sharing, mayla!! I enjoyed it! Seems absolutely perfect (to me).

B.

[jlh]

So yeah, I just had to go back and find this!  How's the singing coming, m1469?

[m1469]

So yeah, I just had to go back and find this!  How's the singing coming, m1469?

Oh, it's going well, thanks.  I won't dare to listen to this recording though  .

[johnny-boy]

Wonderful singing m1469!!!

Best, John