Liszt, Sonetto 104 del Petraca

[rachfan]

This piece is also from Annees de Pelerinage (Italie). 

[donjuan]

you might want to change the title..  this is 123 you have, not 104

I play 104 https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,17728.0.html

Please note: This performance is an ultra-romantic reading of the piece.

actually, I thought you were a bit conservative on this one.  If you really want it more romantic, don't just play the melody, declare it.  I don't think it's lonely enough

[pianiststrongbad]

Hey rachfan, title of the thread is no. 104 but you post no. 123 again.  I was hoping to respond to 104 since I have played it and I am familiar with it.  But anyways, I will do my best to respond to no. 123 but I have never played it.  Okay I'm just going to say what I hear while following along with the score, editions might differ.  Bar 7, I could use more of a decrescendo.  Bar 14 I couldn't hear the 2nd grace note.  The last Bb was definately tapered.  But it was so much i had a hard time hearing it.  I think it should be much softer than the notes before it, but not so soft that I can barely hear it, it might have just not picked up on the recording.  The 5th bar of the sempre lento where the notes are marked portato, I don't think we should lose the rolled chord just before it, it seems like you changed pedal.  I really like the way you play all your portato passages though, they are right in between staccato and legato.  Five before the piu lento (sorry don't have bar numbers) I thought it lacked a bit of energy.  It sounds like you are building, but it doesn't seem sufficient enough, maybe it should go faster, I don't know.  The next big buildup I thought was a lot better, a few bars before the dolcisimo armonioso.  Six bars before the end it says perdendo, which I think means dying away.  I thought you could decresc more, it seemed kinda static dynamically that bar.  I really liked the end.  As I said, I really don't know this piece at all, so don't read to deeply into this.  But these things aside, I think it was a really good interpretation of this.  These pieces from the Years of Pilgrimage I think are the most musical out of Liszt's output.  Thanks for introducing this piece to me!

[rachfan]

Hi pianiststrongbad,

Sorry about the incorrect posting, but thanks for the feedback on 123.  Check above, and 104 is up there.  I'd like to delete 123 out of that post, but can't find how to do it.

[rachfan]

Hi donjuan,

Sorry, I made the wrong selection while posting.  104 is up there now if you'd like to try again. 

[pianiststrongbad]

Okay just listened to your 104.  Rather than commenting on everything I do different I'll just post my own recording (since it is quite different) of it from a few years back, which was live in front of my fellow classmates and filled with wrong notes.    Anyways, my main complaint in this is that a lot of it seemed too static dynamically.  I thought it should cresc and decresc more, but everyone has their own opinions.  Even though this was very different from mine I really liked it, its always to hear another take that is different.  Good job!

[rachfan]

Hello again, pianostongbad,

I had some time to consider your comments on 123.  On not hearing certain notes: Originally, the recording was made on cassette tape.  Later it was transferred to CD.  Then it was ripped as an electronic file into wmaformat.  Lastly, the wma was converted to mp3  !  I think that with all these mutations, especially the final compression to mp3, that the fidelity suffered, especially heard in a flattening out of the higer frequencies.  That sort of muted the sonics.  So some of this could well be a degradation in recording quality, although I don't rest on that as an excuse for my own playing. 

On your question about  the fifth measure into the Sempre lento, the voice leading in that measure goes from the initial F in the RH (half note) down to the E flat at the top of the roll you mentioned.  That role has to be a fast one for only the duration of its 8th note value.  Once the roll has been executed, there is no pedal for the remainder of the measure.  Instead the "how dry I am" motif is played portato in isolation with the pedal reentering for the A flat roll on the second beat of the following measure. 

Usually I rely on urtext editions.  In this case I used Schirmer (not my favorite); however, Schirmer is not a bad edition for Liszt, and in this case, the editor was Joseffy, who was considered one of the better editors of his time.  Nevertheless, if I were to restudy the piece, I would probably go either to Henle first, or Ricordi as fallback.

[pianiststrongbad]

Ah, Okay this is a difference of edition.  In both of my Editions- Peters (Sauer), and my CD Sheet music Library (dunno who the editor is for that) there is in that bar a pedal marking starting on the second 8th in the left hand (suprisingly there is no pedal release).  The pedal is then pushed down again on the third beat of the measure with the arpeggiated chord in the left hand.  This is then released on the last 8th of the measure. 
Anyways, as I said above, I liked your 104 recording a lot, I posted my own in there just in case if you skipped over it so you can get an idea of how I interpret it.

[rachfan]

Hi Pianostrongbad,

Yes, I did listen to your 104 and liked it a great deal!  I did comment on it, in your own original posting of the piece. 

On the Peters Edition, I have a lot of respect for Emil von Sauer's editing in general.  By the way, we usually think of him as a 19th century pianist, but the fact is, he died in 1942 and left recordings!  He originally studied with Nicolai Rubinstein but worked with Liszt too, and played with great elegance.  When I was doing some of Brahms' Short Works, I used Sauer's edition and found it it to be entirely satisfactory.

With the differences in pedal markings you point out among editions, my guess is that in his manuscript or autograph copy, Liszt indicated no pedal markings there, leaving it to the interpreter.  That probably opened the door for the editors to go town.     

[pianiststrongbad]

Hi Pianostrongbad,

Yes, I did listen to your 104 and liked it a great deal!  I did comment on it, in your own original posting of the piece. 

On the Peters Edition, I have a lot of respect for Emil von Sauer's editing in general.  By the way, we usually think of him as a 19th century pianist, but the fact is, he died in 1942 and left recordings!  He originally studied with Nicolai Rubinstein but worked with Liszt too, and played with great elegance.  When I was doing some of Brahms' Short Works, I used Sauer's edition and found it it to be entirely satisfactory.

With the differences in pedal markings you point out among editions, my guess is that in his manuscript or autograph copy, Liszt indicated no pedal markings there, leaving it to the interpreter.  That probably opened the door for the editors to go town.     

I think you commented on DonJuan's since I just put mine up on this thread.  I haven't had a chance to give feedback to him yet.  Anyways, regarding the editors, I too use Sauer's editions because I think they are great.  While my teacher keeps pushing me towards Henle, I keep pointing towards the price tag. 

[donjuan]

Hi donjuan,

Sorry, I made the wrong selection while posting.  104 is up there now if you'd like to try again. 

hey that's alright!

thanks for responding in my thread!

haha you think I rushed a bit, and I think yours dragged a bit.  We might have to agree to disagree I think, but nevertheless, I liked parts of your recording very much.  Just remember that phrasing is important so that the audience knows what's going on.

I like the brightness of your touch, but I think too much of it can ruin its effect.  Horowitz knew how to get the balance just right; he could have some percussive moments, and just as you absorb it, he changes it up again and keeps the listener fresh and interested.

here is an english translation of Petrarch's poem, in case you havent seen it:
-----------------
Petrarch Sonnet No. 104

I find no peace, yet make no war;
I fear yet hope, I burn yet am ice;
I fly in the heavens, but lie on the earth;
I hold nothing, but embrace the whole world.

One imprisons me, who neither frees nor holds me;
nor keeps me for herself, nor loosens the noose;
Love does not slay me, nor unshackle me;
Love wishes me not to live, but leaves me in torment.

I see without eyes, and have no tongue but cry,
I long to perish, yet I beg for aid;
I hate myself, but love another.

I feed on sadness, yet I weeping I laugh;
death and life repel me equally.
I am in this state, Woman, because of You.
----------------------

and here is a video of Liszt's original song version of it:

regarding the editors, I too use Sauer's editions because I think they are great. While my teacher keeps pushing me towards Henle, I keep pointing towards the price tag.

I agree 100% with the henle thing; I use Dover all the way cuz it's cheap.  and editors --> screw em!  I just look at my bracelet that says "WWLD?" or "what would Liszt do?"

[rachfan]

Hi donjuan,

Here is another translation of Sonett 104 by Nott!   Hey, no wonder we and pianiststrongbad have different interpretations--we're all reading different translations, haha!   

Warfare I cannot wage, yet know not peace;
I fear, I hope, I burn, I freeze again;
Mount to the skies, then bow to earth my face;
Grasp the whole world, yet nothing can obtain.
His prisoner Love nor frees, or will detain;
In toils he holds me not, nor will release;
He slays me not nor yet will he unchain;
No joy allows, nor lets my sorrow cease.
Sightless, I see my fair; though mute, I mourn;
I scorn existence, and yet court its stay;
Detest myself, and for another burn;
By grief I'm nurtured; and, though tearful, gay;
Death I despise, and life alike I hate:
Such, Lady, dost thou make my wayward state!

[rachfan]

Hi Pianostrongbad,

Finally, I listened to your 104 a second time.  I liked it a lot!  You definitely take a more leisurely, relaxed tempo than I chose, but the piece breathes very nicely.  The mood you create is a very pensive, introspective one for the most part, yet exciting when it needs to be, whereas mine is more taut with a more apparent undercurrent of turmoil--and more declarative at times.  You have wonderful clarity of line, phrasing and voicing--fine pedaling too.  I took several rhythmic liberties, but I believe you do even more--not a problem though, as this is an ultra-romantic piece.  I liked your many nuances and your wide dynamic range too.  My range in the recording seems considerably narrower, but at that time I was using a very inexpensive recorder, and that might have contributed to the flattening of the range.  Despite the contrasts, there are some moments in the piece where it would be difficult to distinguish our playing, as we were aiming for exactly the same effects.  Incidentally, wrong notes are inconsequential.  You recover instantly from them and in an artistic way, preserving perfect continuity.  Most listeners don't care about fluffs, as they are far more concerned with being caught up in the spell you're creating.  You played this piece with much elan.  Very good! 

[pianiststrongbad]

Hey Rachfan, thanks for the comments.  I really don't remember which translation of the poem I used, the one in my Peters Edition only provides Italian.  I think I just found a free one online, which means all of us probably used different translations.   

Again, thanks for the comments.