need advices on SHIGERU KAWAI PIANOS!

[findingnemo]

Hi everyone,

i currently have a Kawai RS50 grand, which is more than 10yrs old, and i'm thinking to either get a new Shigeru grand (dont know which model though, it'll be about 5'), or a really good german upright, such as ronisch or schimmel

So yeah does anyone have a Shigeru grand piano? are they really the finest Japan pianos?? (and as i heard that if you buy their pianos, they actually send one of their technicians from Japan to your place to do voicing and tuning, which is pretty cool:) )

https://www.shigerukawai.com

and i'm just wondering if its really true that if you practice on grands, you will have a stronger technique than if you practice on uprights? (coz the hammer strikes up instead of in?)

thanx!

[The Tempest]

I do not own a Shigeru Kawai, but I've played them and they are pretty decent. Definitely not Japan's finest piano (that would have to be Yamaha) but it is considerably better than the lousy K. Kawai.

Their touch has been improved; it is reasonably lighter than K. Kawai models but not as much so as the Yamaha. They are very responsive to dynamics and their tone is very..... "shaded".

In any case, I'd rather get a Yamaha.

BTW - a grand's action will always perform better than an uprights, but it doesn't mean you can't do well on the latter. It simply means you can't put it in a concert hall in front of 2000 people to play Liszt on it.  

[Axtremus]

Hi, Nemo, see https://www.kawaius.com/grandpianomodels.htm , I cannot find your RS-50, do you mean to say GS-50? That would be a 6'9" piano.

I played Shigeru model III (6'1"), model V (6'6"), and model VI (7'). I typed up my impressions of them before and copied my notes below.

But first, let's address the notion of the "finest Japanese pianos." Both Kawai and Yamaha make pianos at different price points. Their lines of  grand pianos are structured, from lowest price point to highest:
Yamaha: {GA/GC/GH-series, C-series, S-series}
Kawai: {GA/GE-series, RX-series, Shigerus}

The Yamaha S-series and the Shigerus are billed as "hand-crafted" instruments built with limited quantities, and are priced much higher accordingly. (And in the 9'+ concert grand arena, there are the Kawai GS-100, EX, and Shigeru EX, and the Yamaha CFIIIS.) It's very hard to say which is the "finest Japanese piano." Once you get to the Shigery/S-series level and higher, all the pianos are very good, and it boils down to individual taste and preference to pick one out of a bunch of very good instruments.

If a Shigeru Kawai's sound is what you like, get it. If you have not already have your heart set on a Shigeru, I'd recommend playing as many different pianos as possible beyond Kawai and Yamaha. Take you time sampling different pianos. Playing lots of different pianos will help you discover what sort of sound and what kind of touch that you really like from a piano -- then make an informed, well researched decision and buy the one that best suites your needs and preference.

My notes on Shigerus below. Good luck!

Note 1

[Not saying much about SK-3 because I like "bigger pianos," though it certainly was very decent.]  The SK-5/6 may not be the most "powerful" of pianos, but they should not be written off lightly since "raw power" alone does not make a good piano. The Shigerus' construction is quite solid from what I can see, though a tech can probably give a better assessment on the construction aspect.

The tone is quite "warm" and "round" (far from those Yamaha C-series brightness that people usually think about when "Asian pianos" are mentioned). Good tonal consistency from bass to treble. Dynamic range is very wide. And the tone can "open up" quite a bit and give you "brilliance" if you really drive it to the "very loud" portion of the dynamic spectrum.

Action/touch is nothing to sneeze at as well. Very even and consistent up and down the whole keyboard. Quick thrills and repeated notes were handled just fine. I would consider the touch as leaning more towards the "heavy" side of the spectrum. [For what it's worth, the Shigeru's touch is heavier than most new Steinways, new C-series Yamahas and a new Yamaha S6 I tried.]

In general, I find it hard to find anything specific to knock the SK-5/6.

End Note 1

.

Note 2:

K.Kawai and Shigeru Kawai: Played some GE's, RX-1, RX-2, RX-3, RX-5, SK-3, SK-5, SK-6, RX-A. Everything starting from RX-2 is quite respectable. I played old Kawais a long time ago and didn't find them that interesting, but the new crop of RX's and Shigerus have really grabbed my attention (probably because they easily exceeded my rather low initial expectation). Not as bright as the Yamaha C-series, I find the new Kawai's tone much to my liking. The Kawai action is no sloth either. The Shigeru SK's are tonally much more refined than the RX's. Again, my preference for the "big piano tone," especially in the bass, steered me away from the RX-3/SK-3 and smaller pianos...

I found very little difference between an SK-5 and an SK-6 except at the lower bass registers where sheer size really counts... The tone is slightly rounder and warmer than the RX-5, and very refined over all. Good clarity. Good sustain. Very wide dynamic range. Good, responsive action that veers very slightly to the heavy side. Ornate piano legs.

The truth is, the SK-5 and SK-6 are, in my view, a little more refined than the RX-A, especially in the bass. But raw power was sacrificed to achieve this refinement, and, a bit like the [Mason and Hamlin] BB, the lower bass sounded a little weak when compared to the rest of the piano. The higher treble also sounded a little too dark for my taste.

Overall, the Shigerus' warm, round tone does "open up" to brilliance as the volume increases; and the trajectory of the "openning up" is very natural and very predictable...

End Note 2

[findingnemo]

Hi, Nemo, see https://www.kawaius.com/grandpianomodels.htm , I cannot find your RS-50, do you mean to say GS-50? That would be a 6'9" piano.

.

HI! thx for the replies, opps, yeah, thats what i meant, GS-50

and yes, i have played on two shigeru pianos, they were a little smaller than mine, so i guess they might be the sk2 and sk3, hmmm they sounded very nice i'd say, and the touch is rather different to the k kawais, and i think they are priced between AU$30000~40000 here in sydney.... i'm just deciding whether to browse a few more pianos or just choose from one of sk2/sk3.................and i'm not really sure whether they worth the price they are listed...  and whether its wise to upgrade from GS-50 to SK2 or SK3....

[krenske]

May I first address the issue of practicing on grand versus upright. Ideally one would practice on a steinway grand, or at least similar with renner action - we all know the learning curve, when one approaches such an instrument!
The exception for me is that once I practiced on steinway for several months, and then had to play on an old german "lightish" upright - and that was embarassing. I suppose there's something to be said for varying one's practice instruments.
Secondly may I comment on the descriptions of this or that action as "light" or "heavier". As far as I have found, a fine technician can tailor an action within limits. Also, any one piano factory may come out with many different "weights", which vary as much as the individual character of the piano. And then you've got "personal opinion" to factor in.
Shigeru's are very beautiful, but so can be a fine Yamaha, or Steinway, or any other, if its a good instrument kept in 100% condition, in a beautiful acoustic.
A little fine wine doesn't hurt either!
Happy piano-choosing:)

[chsmike2345]

First, I have to say that practicing on a grand is absolutely necessary to develop a good technique. I find any and all uprights simply too light to the touch, so when you get to a grand during performance, your fingers have to fight and gasp for air!
Secondly, Shigeru vs. Yamaha? Shigeru wins hands down. period. Yamaha is machine made. Shigeru takes a year to painstakingly be made by hand by craftsmen that make pianos for a living. I am even going to say that the Shigeru, in terms of quality, is better than almost all pianos made in the U.S, since based on observation, Japanese craftsmen put more time, effort, and passion into the creation of a piano. (Japanese people have been known to commit suicide when getting fired from their jobs).
In terms of sound, I briefly touched and played a shigeru, and have to say that the sound was magnificent. The only downside is that it costs almost as much as a well known brand like steinway or mason and hamlin, while it lacks the name recognition of the big boys, so in terms of resale it isn't good. I can confidently say that the Shigeru Kawai will definitely gain the recognition it deserves in the coming years. Definitely.
Another downside is that the parts are all japanese, and i don't know the quality or performance of these japanese parts. I'm sure they need more experience in making their own parts, as oposed to steinway, which either uses its time tested and artist approved action, or the universal rener action.
Overall rating: great for personal use, if you don't plan on selling it.

[Axtremus]

Yamaha is machine made. Shigeru takes a year to painstakingly be made by hand by craftsmen that make pianos for a living.

A couple of things to note:

1. Not all Yamahas are "machine-made." The S-series and the CFIIIS are supposedly also "hand-made" by Yamaha's master piano artisans, whatever those terms mean.

2. "Hand-made" versus "machine-made" -- the distinction is quite fuzzy and one is not necessarily superior to another. Every piano requires some amount of hand work and machineries are used at difference steps of a piano's construction. It's not "all hand work" versus "all machine work," but rather, it's "how much hand work of this kind" versus "how much machine work of that kind." It is conceivable that some makers choose to have more "hand-work" than "machine work" because they believe that's the best way to achieve their quality goals while some makers are stuck with more "hand work" than "machine work" because they (a) do not have enough capital to invest in the machines, (b) do not have the volume and economy of scale to justify automating more of their manufacturing, or (c) are hamstrung by various labor union and regulatory restrictions to employ that many workers and hence make no sense for them to automate more that they already have. There are many, many reasons to build pianos differently and many, many of those reasons may have nothing to do with quality.

I, as a consumer, would care less about how a piano is made. Hand-made or not, I just play the end product as a whole and judge the piano with my ears and fingers. Hand-made versus machine-made, Renner action versus Yamaha-Balanced-Action, Sitka spruce versus Ezo spruce, hardrock maple rim versus matoa rim, Abel hammers versus Immedigawa hammers... all these stuff may splatter all over the marketing brochures, but they would mean nothing to me if my fingers don't like the touch or my ears don't like the sound.

For concert pianists expecting 90% of the pianos on which they perform to be Steinways and figure they need to own and practise on a Steinway piano or one with Steinway-like action for that reason, well, c'est la vie. Arguing this piano is "better" than that is rather moot. We just choose different pianos to meet different needs and satisfy different preferences.

[chsmike2345]

First off, handmade = requires more time = better quality.
Secondly, but most importantly, handmade pianos SOUND BETTER, period. Steinway. Mason and Hamlin. Bosendorfer. SHIGERU.

I don't know why, but handmade pianos sound much more mellow and overall better than machine and mass manufactured pianos.