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Notations I do not understand (Read 2016 times)

Offline dinosaurtales

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Notations I do not understand
« on: July 08, 2002, 08:10:02 AM »
:-/
I am currently working on Beethoven's Sonata Op 57 #23 - Appassionata.  I have the Kalmus unedited edition.  There are some notaions througout the piece, espeically the final movement, that look like giant asterisks.  I can't tell if they are somehow linked to pedal markings, or if they mean something else.  Anybody know?

So much music, so little time........

Offline ludwig

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Re: Notations I do not understand
«Reply #1 on: July 08, 2002, 03:53:21 PM »
Hey DinosaurTales, I love this sonata, especially the 3rd movement, so much energy! Anyways, the big markings you mentioned, could you give me some bar numbers for this movement where they occur? I found my copy to have a big mark on the 1st bar of the 3rd movement, and the 2 bars before that, the chords leading into it. My copy says that it is indeed a pedal marking, not sure what your marking/notation looks like though..
"Classical music snobs are some of the snobbiest snobs of all. Often their snobbery masquerades as helpfulnes... unaware that they are making you feel small in order to make themselves feel big..."ÜÜÜ

Offline dinosaurtales

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Re: Notations I do not understand
«Reply #2 on: July 09, 2002, 08:38:11 AM »
Hm.  I don't have measure numbers, but there are several occurrences of them, these Giant Asterisks, in the first and third movements.  I'll try to describe a coiuple of the spots, and see if they occur in your music, too:  In the First Movement, there's one at the double bar at the end, between the Adagio and Piu Allegro.  There's another one two measures earlier, and several scattered throughout the "page" before.  In the Third Movement, the last half (the repeat section), there's a bunch in the "open" adagio 61 measures in, and every 2nd measure in that section.  And there's one at the very end of the piece.  Any clue as to what these silly things are supposed to mean?  Did Beethoven actually mark "get off the pedal" or anything like that?

Any help would be appreciated.
So much music, so little time........

Offline ludwig

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Re: Notations I do not understand
«Reply #3 on: July 09, 2002, 11:13:13 AM »
I found the places in my music with the wierd markings too, that you described. I've found them in the Alfred Hoehn edition, actually a few other good editions too. Except the markings on this edition I have are big P-like signs, with a giant asterisks when pedal finishes, just like the normal asterisks for pedal ending indications. Yeah, looks kinda funny, especially occuring once every two bars in the 3rd movement as you've mentioned. I'm pretty sure now they are pedal markings, since on the first P-like sign it says sempre Pedale.... and then the wierd looking p signs follows it.
"Classical music snobs are some of the snobbiest snobs of all. Often their snobbery masquerades as helpfulnes... unaware that they are making you feel small in order to make themselves feel big..."ÜÜÜ

Offline dinosaurtales

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Re: Notations I do not understand
«Reply #4 on: July 09, 2002, 06:10:08 PM »
Hm.  So do you suppose it means "pedal off"?  I sort of am assuming the "Ped" markings mean "pedal on".  I guess I never realized Beethoven was that specific in his specs.  Could it mean anything else?  Can't figure.
So much music, so little time........

Offline ludwig

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Re: Notations I do not understand
«Reply #5 on: July 10, 2002, 11:07:23 AM »
Yeah, it is sorta specific, but remember, it is Beethoven. I was always told that, especially in his piano music, he means EXACTLY what he writes, I've been told that I play too much to "my liking" of his piano sonatas, just be more strict with my playing, so I suppose he would want to have specific pedal markings. Big asterisks would be pedal off, and pedale or ped would be pedal on. Goodluck in this sonata DinosaurTales, Its one of my favourites, technically very demanding work!
"Classical music snobs are some of the snobbiest snobs of all. Often their snobbery masquerades as helpfulnes... unaware that they are making you feel small in order to make themselves feel big..."ÜÜÜ

Offline dinosaurtales

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Re: Notations I do not understand
«Reply #6 on: July 10, 2002, 06:28:02 PM »
Thanks for the tip!  I'll see how it goes as a pedal marking, and you are right, this is a nasty one, especially for me.  I may never really play it well, but it's great exercise!  HA!
So much music, so little time........

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Notations I do not understand
«Reply #7 on: April 26, 2004, 10:56:01 AM »
Quote
Yeah, it is sorta specific, but remember, it is Beethoven. I was always told that, especially in his piano music, he means EXACTLY what he writes, I've been told that I play too much to "my liking" of his piano sonatas, just be more strict with my playing, so I suppose he would want to have specific pedal markings. Big asterisks would be pedal off, and pedale or ped would be pedal on. Goodluck in this sonata DinosaurTales, Its one of my favourites, technically very demanding work!



Actually, when Beethoven says to use pedal markings, he means that damper should be used to sustain the sound.  However, sometimes with different editing, the editor will mark the action of the damper.  Beethoven did not write in the use of the damper very often.  And he used the damper way more than he ever marked in his own compositions.

The big asterisk means end damper.  Ped --------- *.

Offline JeffL

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Re: Notations I do not understand
«Reply #8 on: May 02, 2004, 01:49:26 PM »
I seem to recall that this method of indicating the use of the right pedal was invented by Daniel Steibelt. It seems unlikely that Beethoven would have used it, especially as he appears to have despised Steibelt!
I wonder if anybody has examined facsimiles of Beethoven's autographs to see how he indicated pedal-markings?

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Notations I do not understand
«Reply #9 on: May 02, 2004, 02:26:21 PM »
I don't know.  But my previous comment about his playing was because of one reviewer whom said that he used it a lot more than was marked.  So I infer that when his compositions were published, there were those damper  markings.  Otherwise, how would this reviewer know that he marked it less than Ludvy used a lot more?

Offline Hmoll

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Re: Notations I do not understand
«Reply #10 on: May 02, 2004, 03:23:38 PM »
Quote
I wonder if anybody has examined facsimiles of Beethoven's autographs to see how he indicated pedal-markings?


The folks at Henle did. Take a look at their edition.

Beethoven did not mark every instance that pedal is to be used. He did mark sections he intended it to be used that are not intuitive - introduction to last movement of op 110, brief recit. part of op 31#2. There are numerous sections of his music where it's obvious that pedal is called for where he did not indicate it. His pedal marking - where they exist - should be noted in relation to the difference between early 19th century and 21st century pianos.
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