Fingers for trills

[persona]

Like any other human being (I assume), I find it much more confortable to play trills with fingers 1-2, or maybe 2-3, rather than 3-4 or 4-5. Now, should a serious pianist be able to play trills with any couple of fingers, or should one always try to avoid using 3-4 and 4-5?

Thanx a lot in advance.

[bench warmer]

 
Don't avoid it, but don't try to master it in like 2 weeks either. If you are serious about being a pianist you will see music where you need to use 3-4-5 permutations in trills.
 
Trill with 3-4 a little each day, maybe starting on C# and going up an octave chromatically. 
After that try 3-5.  The 4-5 combo is very difficult to sustain an extended even trill. Luckily it's a rare occurence.

Look also at Chopins Etude 10.2 and just do the 3-4-5 part in the RH for finger independence. You can add the bottom chords in the RH later.
Good Luck

[stevehopwood]

I have a huge repertoire of pieces I play or have played professionally, including Brahms 2nd and Rachmaninov 3rd concertos.

I find that my trilling combinations of 1-3, 2-3, 2-4 take care off nearly all trills I have to play, except for the double trills in Beethoven's 4th concerto. These I play with 2 & 4 - 1 & 5. Because I cannot do a true trill with 4-5, I have to make do with a measured trill in the concerto; this is nowhere near as effective as when played by someone who can do a really brilliant double trill.

So, it is possible to be a serious pianist without developing a 4-5 trill. It all depends whether you want to play Beethoven's final piano sonatas, as these contain some formidable passages only playable if you can trill with 4-5. I am fairly sure there are some in Liszt's piano concerti. I play none of these pieces, so I have never felt the need to develop this facility.

It would not be difficult to develop a good 4-5 trill if you want to play these pieces eventually - invent a little exercise and practise it for a couple of minutes every day.

A 3-4 trill crops up occasionally, for reasons of convenience. These tend to be short and so I manage. Longer trills I play using my favoured combinations.

Hope this helps

Steve 

[lung7793]

Liszt loves these trills...in the Eb concerto there's a page long RH trill with the RH also playing parts of chords at times, so a 3-5 trill is necessary here.  Later in the concerto, the left hand AND right hand deal with this problem simultaneously.  Some composers are just very cruel like that!

[teresa_b]

I find that my trilling combinations of 1-3, 2-3, 2-4 take care off nearly all trills I have to play, except for the double trills in Beethoven's 4th concerto. These I play with 2 & 4 - 1 & 5. Because I cannot do a true trill with 4-5, I have to make do with a measured trill in the concerto; this is nowhere near as effective as when played by someone who can do a really brilliant double trill.
Steve 

Steve,  I am working on the Beethoven 4 for a performance of the chamber version in the spring.  It has even more ridiculous trills in it, which I am working on slowly and assiduously.  Because Beethoven's changes to the score are more in line with his shorter and more unusual cadenza, that is the one I'm playing.  It's the first time I've studied this cadenza seriously.  I was going crazy with the trills at the end, which as you recall, are double--you play single trills with fingers 1-2 of both hands and intersperse these with eighth-notes played mainly with 4-5. 

I played and played with these fingerings--and finally hit on something that worked for me.  Begin on the auxiliary, not the principle, note.  Then reverse the standard fingering in LH and play 1 on the lower key, 2 on the upper key.  This seems insane until you try it and realize you can then easily rotate your forearm to play the "pinky" notes.  (You have to "cheat" and skip the trill note while you play the eighth note) This is not necessary in the RH. 

Have you played this cadenza?  Any other clues?

Teresa

[barnowl]

Pretty good, Persona.

You started here as someone who avoided trills. Now, you seem to be attacking them with gusto.

[persona]

hehehe good point barnowl!!! I see you pay a lot of attention here! The truth is, I came to realize most ornaments are there for a reason, now I just can't imagine them not being there in most cases

[stevehopwood]

Steve,  I am working on the Beethoven 4 for a performance of the chamber version in the spring.  It has even more ridiculous trills in it, which I am working on slowly and assiduously.  Because Beethoven's changes to the score are more in line with his shorter and more unusual cadenza, that is the one I'm playing.  It's the first time I've studied this cadenza seriously.  I was going crazy with the trills at the end, which as you recall, are double--you play single trills with fingers 1-2 of both hands and intersperse these with eighth-notes played mainly with 4-5. 

I played and played with these fingerings--and finally hit on something that worked for me.  Begin on the auxiliary, not the principle, note.  Then reverse the standard fingering in LH and play 1 on the lower key, 2 on the upper key.  This seems insane until you try it and realize you can then easily rotate your forearm to play the "pinky" notes.  (You have to "cheat" and skip the trill note while you play the eighth note) This is not necessary in the RH. 

Have you played this cadenza?  Any other clues?

Teresa

By 'eck, Teresa, those are some trills. 

I don't play this cadenza - life is too short. The cadenza most people play is much easier.

If you persevere with the trills and master them, you will have achieved a huge technical breakthrough.

It is strange, the way that changing the direction of a trill can make all the difference to playing it - I find this also (lh tremolos are the same - can do them low-high but can't do them high-low; doesn't make any sense but true nontheless).  For me, being stylistically 'correct' is far less important than playing musically, so I will always start a trill on the note that allows me to play most gracefully.

There is a 'bail out' for the cadenza trills, if you find you cannot master them in time. Make the 8th notes the first of a group of 32nd notes each time.

For example, the very first group of trills has you trilling on a G whilst the 8th notes are D's. The first four groups of 32's would be AGAG DGAG DGAG DGAG .

Although a cheat, this would still sound stunningly impressive. Anybody listening who knew you were cheating would also know why. 

Good luck Teresa. Of all the concerti I have performed, this one is my favourite.

Steve 

[persona]

It's good to see this topic coming back to the top, but I still haven't received a straight answer to the original question. Here's an exaple of what I was asking, on Mozart's Piano Sonata in D. Take a look at the second trill. The "right way" to do it, I asume, would be with fingers 3 - 4, but still, it can be easily done with 2 - 3 since the notes after it are all staccato. So, what should I do? Should I practice my 3 - 4 trills with this passage to be prepared for an eventual unavoidable trill of this nature that could come along, or should I just switch to 2 - 3 an do it the easy way?

[stevehopwood]

It's good to see this topic coming back to the top, but I still haven't received a straight answer to the original question. Here's an exaple of what I was asking, on Mozart's Piano Sonata in D. Take a look at the second trill. The "right way" to do it, I asume, would be with fingers 3 - 4, but still, it can be easily done with 2 - 3 since the notes after it are all staccato. So, what should I do? Should I practice my 3 - 4 trills with this passage to be prepared for an eventual unavoidable trill of this nature that could come along, or should I just switch to 2 - 3 an do it the easy way?

I am fairly sure that myself and at least one another contributor have advised that 3-4 trills are not a good idea. Develop this facility if you want - most of the rest of us use different finger combinations, as I believe I pointed out in my first answer.

In the Mozart example you quote, most of us will simply play a 4 note turn beginning on the upper note. The over-enthusiastic or technically brilliant might attempt 6 notes, if they are not playing too quickly for this to be possible.

Steve 

[teresa_b]

By 'eck, Teresa, those are some trills. 

I don't play this cadenza - life is too short. The cadenza most people play is much easier.

If you persevere with the trills and master them, you will have achieved a huge technical breakthrough.

It is strange, the way that changing the direction of a trill can make all the difference to playing it - I find this also (lh tremolos are the same - can do them low-high but can't do them high-low; doesn't make any sense but true nontheless).  For me, being stylistically 'correct' is far less important than playing musically, so I will always start a trill on the note that allows me to play most gracefully.

There is a 'bail out' for the cadenza trills, if you find you cannot master them in time. Make the 8th notes the first of a group of 32nd notes each time.

For example, the very first group of trills has you trilling on a G whilst the 8th notes are D's. The first four groups of 32's would be AGAG DGAG DGAG DGAG .

Although a cheat, this would still sound stunningly impressive. Anybody listening who knew you were cheating would also know why. 

Good luck Teresa. Of all the concerti I have performed, this one is my favourite.

Steve 

Steve,

I am doing exactly the "cheat" you mention--making the eighth notes the first of the 32nd-note groups.  I do this throughout these trill passages, because indeed it sounds perfectly fine, and with my small hands it's extremely difficult to play the trills with the eighth notes as written.  And I defy anyone to play it without the cheat in the last few bars--You would have to have a span of at least a 9th between fingers 2 and 5! 

BTW, if you can play Rach 3, I think you could breeze through this little ol' cadenza.   

Thanks for the pointers and good wishes!  This is also my favorite concerto.
Teresa