I cant belevie ppl cant put this through their heads

[leahcim]

how am i arguing with myself?

How is easy. https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?action=help

Why you are, we can only guess.

[lau]

wise move leahcim, if only i could comprehend your advancement.

what the flipping chilzt was that link about? It talked about pianostreet and was weird.

but I still don't understand how i am arguing with myself, I am a man of my word.


best wishes,

Bernhard petellier

[lostinidlewonder]

When you die you will not realise you have died, so how you die will not matter to yourself. We never realised when we where born, so too we will never realise it when we die. Death is rebirth, we never knew our surroundings when we where born into our physical bodies. When we die we will be born into spiritual bodies, we will not know ourselves immediately, just like we didn't have a concept of ourselves (as we do as adults now) when we where newly borns. But it will be for sure that reality as we know it in our physical bodies now will be much different when we are in our spiritual form. So what fear really is there with death??

We have been given life for free! It cost us nothing to be born into this world! Whatever we suffer will be for something because it is either suffer life or not exist! What do you think is better? To not exist or to suffer through life? Sufferring is always different for all, some people suffer more in life than others. But when I feel down in life I shake myself and say wake up to yourself! You are alive!

Death is like birth, only backwards.

[johnny-boy]

“We never realized when we where born, so too we will never realize it when we die” – Lost

When we were born our knowledge/awareness capacity was non-existent. In fact most people can’t remember anything prior to 4-5 years of age. After a lifetime of knowledge and experiences we’re more likely to understand and be aware of our final experience between life and death. 

John

[lostinidlewonder]

After a lifetime of knowledge and experiences we’re more likely to understand and be aware of our final experience between life and death.

Of course there is no right or wrong response to what it actually will feel like when we die. But I think when we actually die, perhaps we may be aware that it is going to happen, but when it happens we will not know that it has happened! What happens if we die in our sleep? What then does the transition feel like? It always interests me, but I think if we are awake just before we die we still will not notice the point that we actually do pass away. It will be like when we fall asleep every night, we do not observe the exact point when we lose consciousness. Death must be very similar and must be how it feels like for everyone no matter how we go.

[emmdoubleew]

x = 1 - dx bar
10x = 10 - 10dx bar
10x - x = 9x, which is the same as (10 - 10dx) bar - (1 - 1dx) bar, which is (9 - 9dx) bar
9x = 9 - 9dx
x = 1 - 1dx

Your friend is assuming 1 - dx bar = .999..., which is what he's trying to prove. Your friend may think he's clever to assume what he's trying to prove in the beggining, because then all the work is done for him.

If he understands calculus, confront him with this proof:

If we let S(n) = .9999...9 (with n 9s)

S(n) = sigmar = 1 to n 9 * 10-r (From the definition of a base 10 number)

10S(n) = sigmar = 0 to n-1 9 * 10-r (Multiply each term of the sum by 10)

9S(n) = 10S(n) - S(n) = sigmar = 0 to n-1 9 * 10-r - sigmar = 1 to n 9 * 10-r = 9 - 9 * 10-n

S(n) = 9S(n)/9 = 1 - 10-n

limn goes to infinity S(n) = 1 - limn goes to infinity 10-n = 1 - 0 = 1

i'm going to give YOU the benifit of the doubt and assume you are telling me something hilariously not funny.

(I can't believe ppl can't put this through their heads)

if x= .99999ect...  and  y= 1 , then  x equals point nine freaking nine and y equals 1.         

If a = b, and a = c, then b = c

    * let x = 0.9999... (a = b)
    * 10x = 9.9999...
    * 10x - x = 9
    * (10 - 1)x = 9
    * 9x = 9
    * x = 1 (a = c)

hence c = b

2/2 looks different from 1, but it's still equal to 1.
That's the thing with math, you can't rely on your first instincts.

[johnny-boy]

    * let x = 0.9999... (a = b)
    * 10x = 9.9999...
    * 10x - x = 9
    * (10 - 1)x = 9
    * 9x = 9
    * x = 1 (a = c)


I understand let x = 0.9999…
I also understand: * 10x = 9.9999...
But I don’t understand * 10x - x = 9

It’s been a long time since I studied Algebra but as I remember it, anything that’s calculated on one side of an equation is calculated the opposite on the other side, thus, shouldn’t it have been 10x – x = 9 + x?

Humor me and explain this in layman’s terms.

Best, John

[johnny-boy]

I bumped this up. We're never going to solve this dilemma if this thread gets buried deep into the Piano Street archives.

John

[prometheus]

Are you serious?

[pianistimo]

time for jaws. 

[johnny-boy]

Are you serious?

No, just kidding Promey. I'm certain that it will never reach "1".

John

[pianistimo]

dah duh dah duh dah duh   ^     ^      ^                   .99999  is now gone.  one shark is left.   now what does that make?

[johnny-boy]

dah duh dah duh dah duh   ^     ^      ^                   .99999  is now gone.  one shark is left.   now what does that make?

It makes one shark with a .99999 in its tummy. Cough it up Sharky we’re not finished with it yet.

John

[aliena]

I have not yet delved into the bowels of this wonderful forum (rest assured I will) but would someone please confirm that "Pianistimo" is female?  Hopefully Painistimo will confirm this for me personally.

If Pianistimo is female then I know there is hope for mankind after all.. and that .99 aint 1.0 and never will be.

Pianistimo, you are a breath of fresh air!  I enjoy your posts, and although I have not read all of them yet, I will.

Please be female - even if you have to have a sex change.

[bflatminor24]

    * let x = 0.9999... (a = b)
    * 10x = 9.9999...
    * 10x - x = 9
    * (10 - 1)x = 9
    * 9x = 9
    * x = 1 (a = c)


I understand let x = 0.9999…
I also understand: * 10x = 9.9999...
But I don’t understand * 10x - x = 9

It’s been a long time since I studied Algebra but as I remember it, anything that’s calculated on one side of an equation is calculated the opposite on the other side, thus, shouldn’t it have been 10x – x = 9 + x?

Humor me and explain this in layman’s terms.

Best, John

Ok, so you agree that 10x = 9.999etc. You also agree that x = .999etc. From this, we can deduce that 10x - x = 9.999etc - .999etc. That is simple algebra.

Now, we can further deduce that 10x - x = 9x, and 9.999etc - .999etc = 9. Since in the above equation we proved that 10x - x = 9.999etc - .999etc, we can use logic to substitute, and the result is that 9x = 9. Now divide each side by 9, and you have x  = 1.

Amazing how math works, ain't it?

~Max~

[bflatminor24]

Oh, and in case any of you wanted another proof, try this one:

https://www.blizzard.com/press/040401.shtml

I rest my case 

~Max~

[ahinton]

I have not yet delved into the bowels of this wonderful forum (rest assured I will) but would someone please confirm that "Pianistimo" is female?  Hopefully Painistimo will confirm this for me personally.

If Pianistimo is female then I know there is hope for mankind after all.. and that .99 aint 1.0 and never will be.

Pianistimo, you are a breath of fresh air!  I enjoy your posts, and although I have not read all of them yet, I will.

Please be female - even if you have to have a sex change.

I can confirm that "pianistimo" is indeed female, so no major surgical intervention of the kind to which you refer will be necessary.

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

 I am no math expert and I haven`t bothered to read thorugh all of this thread. But math is very concrete subject. 1+1=2 no mather what anyone thinks. It is a fact. If mathematicians thinks that 0.999.....=1 than 0.999...=1 no matrher what anyone thinks or want to belive.

[leahcim]

So what fear really is there with death??

Folk tend to run away when you chase after them shouting and swinging a sword, why not ask the next one that you catch?

[johnny-boy]

Ok, so you agree that 10x = 9.999etc. You also agree that x = .999etc. From this, we can deduce that 10x - x = 9.999etc - .999etc. That is simple algebra.

Now, we can further deduce that 10x - x = 9x, and 9.999etc - .999etc = 9. Since in the above equation we proved that 10x - x = 9.999etc - .999etc, we can use logic to substitute, and the result is that 9x = 9. Now divide each side by 9, and you have x  = 1.

Amazing how math works, ain't it?

~Max~

The only thing amazing about your proof is the sneaky way you can manipulate numbers to get any results you wish. But you still can’t change the fact that .999etc. is not “1” – and never will be.  And an apple will never become an orange either.

Nice try though.

John

[leahcim]

And an apple will never become an orange either.

His flaw isn't about fruit mutation, he believes incorrectly that you might become something that you evidently have no chance at all of achieving either. Nice try though

[johnny-boy]

Gullible?

[leahcim]

Gullible?

Nothing so grand. You'd have more chance of reading Bernhard's posts and turning into Chopin.

[johnny-boy]

Nothing so grand. You'd have more chance of reading Bernhard's posts and turning into Chopin.

I wouldn't want to be Chopin either. 
John

[johnny-boy]

I've been reconsidering; maybe I have been a little unfair. I'll tell you what; extend .999etc. out until it rounds itself off to "1" then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, you may as well stop playing games. I‘ve been around long enough to recognize nonsense when I see it.

Nice try anyway.

John

[prometheus]

Your opinion or reasoning does not matter. The axiom says that the two numbers are the same. There is nothing to discuss or reason. Unless you want to propose an alternative number system.

The problem with saying that they do not equal is that there must be a difference. So what is the difference and what does that mean?

[johnny-boy]

Then the axiom (at least the way it was presented) is faltered. Not everyone accepts it.

Common sense should be proof enough that numbers don’t round themselves off. Why make the obvious so complicated?

John

[bflatminor24]

There is no "rounding off." We are not talking about a FINITE number.

You CANNOT round off an INFINITE number.

The 9's repeat endlessly. Because of this "infinite" principle, there is no difference between .9bar and 1, and thus no rounding off needed.

Common sense should tell you this.

~Max~

[johnny-boy]

"You CANNOT round off an INFINITE number" -  bflatminor24

Exactly! So why do you do it?

John

[kony]

oh man the last post is so funny.

this isn't rounding off.

you can round off pi to 2 decimal places, i.e. 3.14

but you can't "round off" 0.9999~... to 0 decimal places (to be come 1)

you can't round it off because they're already equal. Johnny-Boy, the main reason why you don't believe they're equal is because they look totally different.

but how about, say, 1/2. does 57.45 divided by 114.9 equal half?

how come they look so different? yet still equal?

numbers don't have to look the same to equal. although.. you can't write out 0.99999999~... anyway.

[prometheus]

Then the axiom (at least the way it was presented) is faltered. Not everyone accepts it.

Not quite. Those that matter accept it. The rest is irrelevant.

This is what gets taught, this is what is used. Those, like you, that don't want to agree don't even know what that means.

Common sense should be proof enough that numbers don’t round themselves off.

Round off what?

Common sense doesn't prove anything. Often the two contradict.
Also, you can't prove axioms. You either accept them because they are convenient or you don't.

Why make the obvious so complicated?

Don't you see you are making things very complex? And that the current system is very convenient?
What if they don't equal each other? How do you explain that? This question has already been asked many times. So what is 1.000~ minus 0.999~ ?

If you can't answer this people won't stop laughing. If you are right shouldn't it be obvious that it should be very easy for you to answer the question?

Why don't you think about this. What would it mean if 1.000~ and 0.999~ didn't equal?

[johnny-boy]

Not quite. Those that matter accept it. The rest is irrelevant.-Promey

Right, those that agree with you are relevant, those that don't are irrelevant.

Also, you can't prove axioms. You either accept them because they are convenient or you don't- Promey

There we agree. It is convenient.


but you can't "round off" 0.9999~... to 0 decimal places (to be come 1)- Kony

That's what I've been saying all along. It will never, ever reach "1".

John

[prometheus]

All mathematicians agree. They have invented this system and they need to work with it. That's why it matters and that is why it doesn't matter if someone like you, or me in the past, ,thatdoesn't understand what it would mean when they do not equal, think.

What do you mean that it will never reach 1? 1.000~ will also never reach one.



Again you did not answer the crucial question which makes it impossible to take you seriously.

Also, if it is convenient then why is it complex? Also, if it is a convenient axiom then why don't you want to accept it? You keep making silly irrelevant claims like 'it will never reach...' which does not matter to an axiom at all.

[kelly_kelly]

    * let x = 0.9999... (a = b)
    * 10x = 9.9999...
    * 10x - x = 9
    * (10 - 1)x = 9
    * 9x = 9
    * x = 1 (a = c)


I understand let x = 0.9999…
I also understand: * 10x = 9.9999...
But I don’t understand * 10x - x = 9

It’s been a long time since I studied Algebra but as I remember it, anything that’s calculated on one side of an equation is calculated the opposite on the other side, thus, shouldn’t it have been 10x – x = 9 + x?

Humor me and explain this in layman’s terms.

Best, John

Why waste time arguing mathematics with someone who can't do simple algebra? I could have understood that proof when I was 7.

[johnny-boy]

Peace brothers -  and sister Kelly.

Just having a little fun. I have no use for .999etc. in my life. So the bottom line is; I don't care. It’s more interesting to me observing how everyone reacts emotionally.

I hope everyone has had as much fun as I had with this thread.

Best, John

[prometheus]

Nice for all of us to remember how honest you are about an intellectual argument.

[johnny-boy]

Nice for all of us to remember how honest you are about an intellectual argument.

I didn't consider this an intellectual argument Promey. This is entertainment. We all need a break from our real lives once in a while or we wouldn't waste our time here.

Here's proof:

1/9 = 0.111...
2/9 = 0.222...
8/9 = 0.888...
9/9 = 0.999...

9/9 = 1.

Best, John

[tocca]

I can't believe that i've actually read this entire thread now. 
It caught my eye some two hours ago, and for some reason i just kept reading.

For what it's worth i join the 0.999...=1 group, mathematically it can't be anything else than 1.
More interesting for me was that Monty Hall problem discussed in the middle (of this seemingly infinite thread) somewhere. Haven't seen that before, it took me a while to grasp it.
At first i thought, no way that the chances could improve if you alter your choice. But proof is proof. Nice one, must fool some friend with that one later. 

[dnephi]

I am physicist.  If you are within a factor of 10^5 then it's decent.

[deja vu]

john - I think I've realised the problem as to why you don't believe this, but first I'd like to ask you a question:

do you realise that when we type 0.9999.... we mean that there are an INFINATE amount of 9s after the decimal place?

because I would agree that 0.999 doesn't equal one... however, when you put an infinate amount of nine's there, it DOES