Thanks for the replies.But you all seem to be holding your cards pretty close to your bodies... Tell me something I don't know (unless it is a professional secret ).Bernhard.
Just make sure when you get the pieces you spend an adequate amount of time playing SLOWLY - that way the technique you're learning will gradually become embedded - speed up slowly as well..
I'm not sure what this means:"9. Do not bother with the parts of the piece you have no technical difficulty. (great saving time device). "You'll still have to work on those parts, and they may be even more difficult to memorize.(...)There is not much more to say than that, but you always have to think creatively and analytically.
1. If you have a digital piano, switch it off. Not being encumbered by sound (and emotion) one is able to concentrate completely on the movement. This also works wonders for some aspects of memorisation (you really have to know the piece/passage since you cannot rely on your ears. You have to memorise where the keys are and use positional information to guide you).
Another technique: practice a difficult passage slowly, gradually increasing the tempo. Every 4 to 5 repetitions play it at performance tempo. Often you will find that each successive "fast" rep. is better than the last one, and you are able to bring the passage up to tempo more quickly.
My question was “How?”So here is a quick list, by no means complete. (I will be very disappointed if no one can come up with more stuff… ). Of course, only do that after you have slept with the piece under your pillow – Thanks Jemmer. Great tip! 1. Start by sight reading the piece to pinpoint where your particular technical deficiencies may lie (everyone is different).
2. Isolate the bars/passages/sequence of notes (sometimes as little as two notes) that you need to work on.
3. Technical difficulties are defined as awkward fingerings/impossible movements (e.g. accurate jumpings, impossible stretches between fingers), lack of tone/volume control, rhythm inaccuracies. etc. Co-ordination between hands is not considered a technical difficulty for the present and will be dealt separately.4. Work on technical difficulties with hands separate. First aim is to investigate fingering/movement most adequate for producing final result. Playing fast at this stage is essential. Once this is figured out, practise by repeating the passage as many times as necessary to develop facility and being able to play it subconsciously . Playing slowly at this stage is essential.
5. Still with hands separate, work on the technically challenging passage with as many variations as you can think of (rhythm, dynamic, stress, repeated notes, repeated note-groups etc.).
6. once hands separate is completely mastered join hands. This will need a special approach (the best one that I know is dropping notes).7. If necessary simplify (play separate voices, play only melody and bass, etc.) but do not alter.8. Memorise at this stage.
9. Do not bother with the parts of the piece you have no technical difficulty. (great saving time device).10. Join the technically challenging passage (once it is no more challenging) to the rest of the piece.
11. Work on the musical concept and interpretation once technique has been mastered. You may find out you need to modify your technique if it proves inadequate for concept. A (good) teacher may help a beginner here because s/he will already have thought out the concept and the necessary technique. But if you are an advanced player, you may (should) do this on your own.
12. Move on to next piece – preferably of a completely different character in order to expand your technique (don't forget to put it under your pillow! ).
6. once hands separate is completely mastered join hands. This will need a special approach (the best one that I know is dropping notes).
not just for pinpointing the difficulties, but especially for understating why is there this passage, what's its role in the whole structure (that usually helps me build an image on how it should finally sound, so, there, i have an aim for this particular passage)
the passage usually comes from something and continues with something, so the passage to practice starts before the bars with problems and ends after. the passage to practice is usually a motif/phrase/period. practice technically to get all notes clear and keep in mind all the time the image you decided on.
personally, i hardly ever practice separately: i would practice separately a jump, or a fast passage in abnormal sequences (and that usually takes only a gew minutes). i agree on the importance of fingering, once you found your own best fingering, the devil isn't that black anymore. also, on this stage: for every passage decide which hand has to play without visual control and focus on the other.
this is something i never do. especially rhythmic variations... i totally forbid my students to practice in different rhythms, i found it ruins their rhythmic sense. i prefer working on the passage exactly as it is written (rhythm, dynamics, everything), also helps the hand memorizing.
especially when you're dealing with more than 2 voices, i always practice (and have my students do it as well) on combinations of voices (1+2, 1+3, 2+3, or, if there are 4 voices, all combinations of 2 and 3 voices), always with the final fingering and always with the correct dynamics and everything. helps the ear get used to different levels of sonority. also, memorizing should have happened long before reaching this stage.
yes, bother! i had a teacher once who used to say that the sound (the quality of the sound) is a technical problem! even if the passage doesn't look technically chalenging in the begining, based on personal experience i can tell you that in the end, these are the passages that eat you inside out, and especially for us, who have to play on different instruments wherever we go, these passages get to cause you most trouble.
sorry, i have to disagree with you on this point - you cannot separate technical issues from musical ones. the best way (and believe me, i tried on myself doing as you say, i have had teachers who practice this theory) is to work on all levels at the same time. it may seem like too many things to worry about at the same time, but in the end you'll find it saves a lot of time. also, you get to skip the part "find out you need to modify your technique if it proves inadequate for concept"
What do u mean by 'hand memory'? The movements of the hand that may be memorized in place of the music?
What is the difference between playing slowly and in slow motion?
what r repeated notes, repeated note-groups?
What is dropping notes?
In order to 'break' a piece down into practice sections, I have actually cut the piece up (with scissors), place all the sections in one envelop, take one section out at a time, 'practice' it (all that that entails), then it goes into a second envelop when that section is 'finished'. When I have gone through all of the sections in the first envelop, reverse the process. Just pass over any sections that do not present major difficulties, or r repeated.
Hand memory is muscle memory, motor co-ordination memory. Your body simply remembers the movements without you having to think about it. You throw your hands at the piano, and the fingers play and you can hold on a conversation, or watch TV at the same time. In fact you do not need to think about what you are playing at all. Hand memory is acquired by repeating a sequence of movements over and over again with hands together . Hand memory is also sequential: one movement leads to the next. Which means that if you forget one movement in the chain you get a huge blank. Hand memory is absolutely necessary. It is impossible to play the piano without hand memory. However, it is not sufficient. You need other sorts of memory to back it up, since hand memory is notoriously unreliable. You know you have hand memory if you always need to start from the beginning of a piece in order to play it. Excellent point about muscle memory. I agree completely, and in fact, hand memory, when done properly is actually VERY realiable, but as you mention you need other sort of memory to back it up.koji
dear bernhardt, when i have a year i'll explain myself (and have someone translate to decent understandable english), or, when i have 10 min i'll show you what i meant with my "commentaries" on your list . meanwhile, best reagrds,anda
First of all, have you read the full thread? It is not about learning a new piece. It is about developing technique from a piece.
Certainly understanding what is behind of a piece of music is of the utmost importance for its eventual performance. It is of almost no importance if you are working on a particular difficult physical movement. If you have to give an accurate skip or if you have to do an awkward change of fingering, analysis is not going to help you. You just will have to work on it on its own (physical) terms.
But perhaps most importantly, I would certainly not analyse a piece when sight reading it. I would do that by referring to the score, miles away from the piano. Is it important to analyse a piece? Absolutely. In fact I will not touch the piano before I have the piece thoroughly analysed in terms of motif variations and development, harmonic structure and form and so on. Will I do that by sight-reading the piece? You must be joking.
sometimes a motif/phrase/period cannot be tackled in its entirety. Sometimes a whole passage is falling apart because of only two notes. If so you must ignore for the moment the larger episode and work on those single two notes until you master them. The alternative is to keep practising the whole passage and playing it badly because either you are unaware that the two notes are causing the whole problem, or from simple laziness. The consequence? Soon that tiny technical problem will have developed into an ingrained habit and you will have to sell your soul to the devil to get rid of it.
Of course you never practise hands separately. You are a concert pianist, for crying out loud! At your level I doubt if you have any technical problems (in the sense of physical movement) left to solve. So, yes, go straight to hands together and my bet is that even co-ordination (which is what one learns when practising hands together) is not a problem for you. So of course, you should waste no time on this and you should indeed move on to voicing and interpretation.
But for a beginner/intermediate player it is important to understand that it is not possible to acquire technique and co-ordination at the same time – or let us say that it is possible but much more difficult and time consuming. So for a beginner –intermediate student, separate hands for the passages that they find technically challenging – and only for those passages it is a must.
Rhythmical variations in particular are not a general practice procedure, but they will be particularly helpful in fast, even, running passages By the way, forbidding students to do something, just means they are going to do it behind your back he he he . How many of your students do you think are members of this forum ands getting ideas from me to do what you forbid them? He he he
No, memorising has to start at the level where everything is simple: when you are dealing with a single voice. Are you suggesting that one should memorise a whole Fugue and only then take it apart?
You are not reading carefully, Anda. Here is what I said: Do not bother [practising separate hands] the parts of the piece you have no technical difficulty [meaning: go straight to hands together practice on these passages]. Since you yourself said you never bother practising hands separate unless it is a difficult technical passage for you, why are you now stating that you should bother? Of course quality of sound is technical, but I was –for the purposes of discussion – restricting technique to physical movement. Of course everything is interrelated. Of course this all goes without saying.
Yes, I agree that technique cannot separated from musicality. However, for learning purposes separate them one must. Piano playing is a complex task. Not a complicated task, but a complex one. As such the way to learn it is the way one learns any complex task: break the task into its simplest components. Practise each component so that its performance becomes unconscious. Eventually all the single tasks will “gell” into the complex task. This “gelling” happens by itself and it is a most mysterious process an at the moment of writing not understood at all (ask any psychologist). However, just because we have no idea how it happens does not mean that it does not happen. It does, and the best (perhaps the only) way to make sure it happens is to keep working at the separate components. However, beginner/intermediate students will be completely lost with this sort of approach. It has been tried by well meaning pedagogues in several areas. It was a monumental failure.
hey bernhard dont u get pissed at ppl always typing your name wrong?
bernhardt must be a romanian variation on you name or something.
and to add to this thread - i am a relative beginner and im learning chopin's etudes - i am obviously rather gifted, or rather stupid.i believe i am the former, because i think i will advance my technique much quicker from these pieces...
...and the winner for most smileys in a single post goes to................................... ANDA!!!! -Tony-
Topic: How do you get technique from pieces? 