My Program (thoughts?)

[lagin]

So, what order do you think I should do these in (and learn them in, too), and what opinions do you have on the missing pieces?

List A:  Bach's (preferably a prelude and fugue)
List B:  Schubert Sonata D 664, in A+
List C:  Brahms' Ballade in g minor, op. 118, no. 3
List D:  Rach's Prelude in g minor, op. 23, no.5
List E:  Bartok's Roumanian Dance, op. 8a, no. 1
Etude:    (something that will balance nicely with the existing pieces)

[jehangircama]

an easy P&F is no. 21 in B flat major WTC I . I think the liszt concert etude un sospiro will end your programme nicely, a bit of a contrast to some of the other pieces.

[cloches_de_geneve]

I just recently gave a recital starting with Schubert's D 664 and felt that it was a great "entrance" to the other pieces I played. The first movement provides an excellent starting point to get into playing mood. (So much so that I went too enthusiastically into the tricky 3rd mvt, which led to some difficulties once or twice; so my advice is not to rush it if you can). My point is: Do you really need the Bach?

As an encore I played chopin etude 25/8 which went really well with the audience (nothing against "sospiro" of course but it is rather lengthy).

[nicco]

an easy P&F is no. 21 in B flat major WTC I .

Completely disagree.

[lagin]

Hey guys, yes I need the Bach, as this is for an exam and I must have a piece from each list, but I don't need to do the Bach first necessarily.  I agree that the p/f in Bb is nice, in fact I had planned to play it.   It isn't "easy" but it's easy enough to be put in the grade 10 syllabus and not the ARCT syllabus, so I'm afraid I just missed it, as I did my grade 10 program last week.  I was thinking (believe it or not it's actually on the ARCT syllabus) of C+ from book one?  The prelude would be nice and "safe" to open with, though I'm not sure about the fugue because it's kind of slow and pretty, hense I wouldn't necessarily want it next to Schubert.  If I did this p/f I could go Bach, Brahms, Schubert... or something like that perhaps, yes, no?

I'll check out those etudes, guys, thanks.

[jehangircama]

it was in the grade 8 course (the P&F) in Trinity and from what i gather its one of the easier ones. if there are easier ones plz let me know, i am looking for simpler finishable pieces atm.

[lagin]

Hey Jehangircama,

Here are the 3 from the grade 9 (RCM) List.  There aren't any in grade 8 RCM.  The rest of them are in grade 10 or ARCT.   

Prelude and Fugue in c minor, BWV 847, book 1
Prelude and Fugue in e minor, BWV 855, book 1
Prelude and Fugue in A Major, BWV 888, book 2

[jehangircama]

thanks i'll have a look

[pianote]

Bach
[Brahms]           Change it   
Rachmaninoff    Prelude
Schubert           Sonata (the whole thing, right?)
Bartok               Roumanian Dance

What other pieces are in Lists C & D?
The Brahms is somewhat similar to the Rach, vice versa... I think you should get rid of one of them and add something to give more contrast, if it needs to be a Romantic piece... I second Liszt's Un Sospiro...or perhaps Liszt's 3rd Consolation would fit nicely.

Nothing from the Classical Period?

[Waldszenen]

You can always try some of the English Suites and French Suites by Bach, or any of the Partitas. Fun to play, enjoyable to hear and not as often heard as the WTC.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Just out of curiosity: how comfortable do you feel about the last mvt. of Schubert's D664? Just asking, b/c it took me a while to sort it out mentally (and physically) -- it was more of an effort than expected.

[lagin]

Yes, it's the whole Sonata.

The Schubert "counts" as a classical piece according to the syllabus.

The etude does not have to be Romantic - but most of the syllabus' options are either that or 20th century.  Ah, you mean, does List C have to be a Romantic piece!  Yes, it does. 

It is way easier for you to just suggest Romantic pieces and I'll check the syllabus, because it has ALOT of options - too many to write down right now.  Provided whatever you suggest is not really obscure or too easy (not that I wan't killer hard pieces though!), chances are it will probably be on there.

I started to listen to Bach's suites and they didn't grab my attention the way his p/f's do.  Well, mainly the preludes are what I like - a fugue (to me) is a fugue and as long as they aren't too long (because they have to be memorized), I'm not too picky.

I won't change the list D because I've put too much work into it already!  But I will mention to my teacher that the Brahms is very similar and ask her what she thinks. 

The last movement of the Schubert is already anticipated to be one of my "hard" pieces.  I have almost sorted it out mentally - though not memorized yet - and I think I have the technique speed wise to pull it off (if not, I'll develope it over the next year or so), but my only concern are the reaches, but I think between pedal and the right hand taking some of the left hands notes, I'll make it.  I have relatively big hands for a girl - a 9th comfortably, and a 10th if REALLY necessary.

And thanks for the suggested order.  I like that order.  Can I play it like that even if the Schubert is suppost to be my classical piece?

If I missed any questions, just let me know.  Got to run.  Later.  Thanks everyone!

[phil13]

Here's an idea:

What about:

Bach P+F No.20 in A minor from Book II of WTC
Schubert Sonata D.664 in A major
Do something by Chopin instead of Brahms, or choose a different Rach prelude- don't go with g minor back to back.
Bartok Romanian Dances
Etude: MacDowell March Wind, Op.46 No.10

Phil

[lagin]

Hey Phil, I looked up that p/f you suggested and apparently (according to them) it's one of the easier ones and is on the grade 10 list, not the ARCT list.  The same thing happened with my p/f in Bb Major, bk. 1 that I was thinking of doing - grade 10.  BUT the C major one from book one is on ARCT - why? 

Anyway, yes I had actually looked into doing Chopin's nocturne op. 27 no. 1 in  c# minor, but was wondering about going overboard the other way and having to much lyrcial stuff, with 1/3 (time wise) of my program being the Schubert?  Do you think it would be a better choice?

Do you know where I can hear a recording of that MacDowell etude?  What's it like?

[phil13]

Hey Phil, I looked up that p/f you suggested and apparently (according to them) it's one of the easier ones and is on the grade 10 list, not the ARCT list.  The same thing happened with my p/f in Bb Major, bk. 1 that I was thinking of doing - grade 10.  BUT the C major one from book one is on ARCT - why? 

Anyway, yes I had actually looked into doing Chopin's nocturne op. 27 no. 1 in  c# minor, but was wondering about going overboard the other way and having to much lyrcial stuff, with 1/3 (time wise) of my program being the Schubert?  Do you think it would be a better choice?

Do you know where I can hear a recording of that MacDowell etude?  What's it like?

The C major p+f is on the ARCT list most liely for 2 reasons:
1. The fugue is very hard- some say one of the hardest.
2. The prelude is very easy to get the right notes, but very hard to pull off in performance effectively, since there are 5 voices to keep going.

Do something by Chopin that isn't as lyrical as the Nocturnes. Try one of his polonaises.

As for the MacDowell, I'm not sure. Can someone else answer this one? March Wind is not incredibly hard, and it's a beautiful etude.

Phil

[lagin]

Really? One of the hardest fugues?  It's so slow though.  There are other 4 voice fugues that are longer too?  Has anyone played this?  What are the main challenges?

I found a snippet of the Macdowell Etude on Amazon.  Not really enough to tell if I would like it or not.  I didn't like the opening as much as I liked the opening of Liszt's Un Sospiro (btw, what does that mean?), but Liszt is pretty long and I have a 1 hour maximum to stay under (and I'm hoping to stay around 45 minutes if possible so that I can have the option of an intermission or of playing some pieces slower than the "pros" do).   What other Macdowell etudes do you recommend?  They said I can't do no. 4, but the rest are okay. 

[lagin]

I just had an idea.  What if, for my etude, I did a Chopin etude - something nice like op. 10, no. 3, and then I could go:

Bach
Schubert
Brahms
Chopin
Rachmaninoff
Barber

Hmmm.... But then the Rachmaninoff would steal the Barber's thunder.   
Okay how about,

Bach
Brahms
Schubert
Rachmaninoff
Chopin
Barber

??

That way I could keep the Brahms, since I've grown quite attached to it, and still have some Chopin.

[jehangircama]

that C major P&F was the first one of the set that i studied, and its really quite a pain. some of the hand positions are quite awkward and its DEFINITELY tougher than no.21 in b flat. and anyway the preulde is very common on those music for the soul type cds and no.21 has a much peppier prelude, so i would definitely still recommend that. 

[lagin]

Thanks for the input on the fugue, I still have to look closer at it, but I would love to do the one in Bb, but remember, it's on the grade 10 list, and I've already done that exam, so I cannot pick it for my ARCT exam, or else I probably would.

[jehangircama]

then you could look at P&F 3 bk 1 bwv 848 coz its in the trinity ATCL course. so that would be the equivalent of the ARCT. its quite a quick prelude and i think someone's posted a rec. of it in the audition room.

[lagin]

Thanks, I'll go see if I can find it right now.

[nightingale11]

Why not do all the same at once? that will go much faster than just learn them one at a time because if there are technique that needs to be aquire you must condition your brain and that takes a few days (under the circumstances that you have found the optimal motions to play it).

[lagin]

Do you mean learn them all at the same time?  If you do, then I am.  I was just wondering what order to perform them in.  Oh, and update.  We now have:

Bach,      P/F in f# minor, book 2 (no. 14)
Schubert,      Sonata in A Major, D664
List C (Romantic), still undecided, but really want to keep the Brahms, yet might do Chopin
Rach,      Prelude in g minor
Bartok,     Roumanian Dance op. 8a, no. 1
Etude,  Un Sospiro

[nightingale11]

yes....first memorize all the pieces BEFORE starting playing for technique....and practically read this book before doing anything on the piano( Fundamentals of piano practice - C.C. Chang - search for it on google and download it)

when you have memorized you should looking for the right motions ....so a most important rule you must practice FAST before practicing slowly because that will prevent you from building speed walls. So vary the speed and search for new motions and work for accuracy and speed. never be on the smame speed to long. the thing I meant with practice them at the same time is that if you just practice one thing you will be overpracticing it. If you work on things o difficult segments from all the pieces you will not have the chance to overpracticing them. one important thing switch hands very often(about every 15s) so that you can focuse 100% without getting tired-->devloping bad habits,stress etc. and always play slowly before switching hands once at least and every time you quit......Now I am getting tired everything is in the book.....YOU MUST READ IT.

[mike_lang]

yes....first memorize all the pieces BEFORE starting playing for technique....and practically read this book before doing anything on the piano( Fundamentals of piano practice - C.C. Chang - search for it on google and download it)

when you have memorized you should looking for the right motions ....so a most important rule you must practice FAST before practicing slowly because that will prevent you from building speed walls. So vary the speed and search for new motions and work for accuracy and speed. never be on the smame speed to long. the thing I meant with practice them at the same time is that if you just practice one thing you will be overpracticing it. If you work on things o difficult segments from all the pieces you will not have the chance to overpracticing them. one important thing switch hands very often(about every 15s) so that you can focuse 100% without getting tired-->devloping bad habits,stress etc. and always play slowly before switching hands once at least and every time you quit......Now I am getting tired everything is in the book.....YOU MUST READ IT.

How do you separate playing for technique from memorizing?  I think that the two should be done simultaneously, in other words, to memorize as you learn it.  Technique, musicality, and memorization are all part of the learning process from the start, though memorization is more of an effect of knowing the piece well.

As far as practicing fast to avoid speed walls, I see this as a mistake.  Your agility will not be damaged by practicing slowly.  It is important to practice slowly from the start in order to learn the piece well.  It allows the muscles to memorize, the ear to memorize, the eyes to memorize the page - really, everything.  Not to mention, at a slower speed, it is easier to monitor the technique in order to not build in "speed walls."  Speed walls are a result of unnatural technique, not slow practice.

Best,
ML

[bernhard]

How do you separate playing for technique from memorizing?  I think that the two should be done simultaneously, in other words, to memorize as you learn it.  Technique, musicality, and memorization are all part of the learning process from the start, though memorization is more of an effect of knowing the piece well.

You can memorise mentally, from the score (many famous pianists did that, including Gieseking and Gould).

As far as practicing fast to avoid speed walls, I see this as a mistake.  Your agility will not be damaged by practicing slowly.  It is important to practice slowly from the start in order to learn the piece well.  It allows the muscles to memorize, the ear to memorize, the eyes to memorize the page - really, everything.  Not to mention, at a slower speed, it is easier to monitor the technique in order to not build in "speed walls."  Speed walls are a result of unnatural technique, not slow practice.

You are both right and wrong. Yes, speed walls are a result of unnatural technique. A very good way to get unnatural technique is to practise slowly (since at slow speeds you will get away with the unnatural technique). Then as you speed your motions, the unnatural  technique you were getting away with will create the speed wall.

So you must make a distinction between "slow practice" (which should be avoided) and "slow motion practice" (which is essential), that is, playing slowly with the same motions you would play fast.

However how do you figure out the proper motions when playing fast so that you can play them in slow motion? That is when the investigative playing of small sections at fast speeds has great usefulness (and the chord trick).

So unless you already know the perfect technique, fast practice (investigative) should always preced slow motion practice.

Speed walls can also be caused by trying to speed movements as opposed to making the movements smaller (the correct way to speed up).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[mike_lang]

You can memorise mentally, from the score (many famous pianists did that, including Gieseking and Gould).

You are both right and wrong. Yes, speed walls are a result of unnatural technique. A very good way to get unnatural technique is to practise slowly (since at slow speeds you will get away with the unnatural technique). Then as you speed your motions, the unnatural  technique you were getting away with will create the speed wall.

So you must make a distinction between "slow practice" (which should be avoided) and "slow motion practice" (which is essential), that is, playing slowly with the same motions you would play fast.

However how do you figure out the proper motions when playing fast so that you can play them in slow motion? That is when the investigative playing of small sections at fast speeds has great usefulness (and the chord trick).

So unless you already know the perfect technique, fast practice (investigative) should always preced slow motion practice.

Speed walls can also be caused by trying to speed movements as opposed to making the movements smaller (the correct way to speed up).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Yes, you can memorize mentally, but isn't more efficient to memorize it as you practice?  I think that there a lot more things helping you when you do it this way - i.e., tactile memory, aural memory.  Why make memorization a separate process?  I am a firm believer in mental practice once the piece is memorized, but I think before that stage, there are more efficient uses of time.

I do not distinguish between slow practice and slow motion practice because I view them as the same thing.  It is simply a mistake to practice with different motions at a slow tempo than you will at the eventual tempo.  I find that at the slow tempo, it is easiest to find the most natural motions of the hand as well as fingerings.  It is possibly that you might test the movement once if you are uncertain of its viability at a quicker tempo, but as a rule, premature speed prevents proper learning. 

As far as finding the proper movements, I offer my opnion that the best rule is to find what requires the least motion.  Thus, I don't think that a quick tempo is required to find these.

Best,
ML

[bernhard]

Yes, you can memorize mentally, but isn't more efficient to memorize it as you practice?  I think that there a lot more things helping you when you do it this way - i.e., tactile memory, aural memory.  Why make memorization a separate process?  I am a firm believer in mental practice once the piece is memorized, but I think before that stage, there are more efficient uses of time.

Of course, you must suit your learning practice/routine to yourself. When I read your post, I thought you were asking a real question, not a rhetoric one.  By all means do what you feel is more efficient. At the same time, there may be situations where a piano is simply not available (a common enough situation for concert pianists who travel a lot). Training oneself to learn and memorise repertory away from the piano then becomes not only a bonus as a necessity. (Many a concert pianist learned pieces this way on long flights, for instance).

I do not distinguish between slow practice and slow motion practice because I view them as the same thing.  It is simply a mistake to practice with different motions at a slow tempo than you will at the eventual tempo.  I find that at the slow tempo, it is easiest to find the most natural motions of the hand as well as fingerings.  It is possibly that you might test the movement once if you are uncertain of its viability at a quicker tempo, but as a rule, premature speed prevents proper learning. 

Again not making a clear distinction may be fine for you who know what you are doing. However beginners read this constant demand that they should practise slowly. Not being aware that there is a world of difference between slow motion practice and slow practice, they unwittingly practise all sorts of absurd motions and build those into their unconscious. It is not fair not to make such a distinction. And it is sloppy use of the language, since they are not the same thing, and we have no way to know that for you they are the same thing.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[mike_lang]

Of course, you must suit your learning practice/routine to yourself. When I read your post, I thought you were asking a real question, not a rhetoric one.  By all means do what you feel is more efficient. At the same time, there may be situations where a piano is simply not available (a common enough situation for concert pianists who travel a lot). Training oneself to learn and memorise repertory away from the piano then becomes not only a bonus as a necessity. (Many a concert pianist learned pieces this way on long flights, for instance).

Again not making a clear distinction may be fine for you who know what you are doing. However beginners read this constant demand that they should practise slowly. Not being aware that there is a world of difference between slow motion practice and slow practice, they unwittingly practise all sorts of absurd motions and build those into their unconscious. It is not fair not to make such a distinction. And it is sloppy use of the language, since they are not the same thing, and we have no way to know that for you they are the same thing.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I agree that memorization away from the piano is a valuable asset for pianists, particularly those traveling concertizing ones.  Thank you for clarifying your position.

Now, I would like to refute the idea that there is a distinction to be made between slow motion and slow practice.  The idea that the motions are the same during practice and during eventual performance should be implicit.  Again, it is absurd to practice with different motions at a slow tempo than at the eventual tempo.  This is a logical error - it does not legitimize "slow practice" as a method separate from "slow motion practice."  I think that it is in fact sloppy use of the language to distinguish between the two, as we have no way to know that the motions are different in slow practice than other practice.

Best,
ML

[nightingale11]

What I meant with varying the speed is that once you know how it should be played at speed you can play practice slowly. But you must always explore and see if you still got the right motions or see if you can prove them better. In summary Slowplay is for gaining the technique(conditioning the brain) and fast play is for exploring the right motions. That's why you always should quit by playing slowly after every segment you practice since that's the condition you want(accuracy etc.)