What is the term for nonlegato

[barnowl]

I guess to be more specific, I could have asked for the antonym of legato.

Anyway, I don't mean staccato. It's the way Alfred Bendel plays Mozart. He separates the notes instead of playing them as if they were slurred.  And according to a book I have, it's the way Mozart is reputed to have played the piano. Needless to say, the effect is just wonderful.

And, by the way, that's how Josh Rifkin plays Joplin.

[stevehopwood]

The term probably is 'staccato' as this simply means 'detached' - the degree of detachment depending on the interpretation of the player. Not certain, though.

Or are you talking about those wonderful semiquaver passages that seem to leave a shimmering echo of themselves in the air? That is down to supremely brilliant articulation on a fantastic piano.

Steve 

[barnowl]

I guess I mean detached.

I'll try the music dictionary here.

[barnowl]

The music dictionary here is pozorno (thanks Mig.  !!

But at wiktionary.org I found

portato

   1. (music): In an unconnected manner, as opposed to legato, but not as short as staccato

Which might be the way Mozart and Joplin are to be played. Nyet?

Pozorno is shameful in Russian, Mig tells me.

[tac-tics]

potato (plural: potatoes)

   1. A plant tuber, Solanum tuberosum, often eaten as a starchy vegetable, particularly in the Americas and Europe.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

My teacher has me play Bach's staccato notes portato. I think that it largely depends on the music. Obviously, staccato marked notes in Bach's polyphonic music aren't going to be short and pointy, but rather detached as stated earlier.

[barnowl]

Greetings.

My teacher has me play Bach's staccato notes portato. I think that it largely depends on the music. Obviously, staccato marked notes in Bach's polyphonic music aren't going to be short and pointy, but rather detached as stated earlier.

So portato accurately describes how Mozart should be played?

[debussy symbolism]

So portato accurately describes how Mozart should be played?

Concerning Mozart's staccatos, they have to be sharp in some instances. I have played the Ah vous direz je maman variations, and for example, in the 3rd variation, the staccatos have to clearly be sharp and light and in no way detached.

[barnowl]

potato (plural: potatoes)

   1. A plant tuber, Solanum tuberosum, often eaten as a starchy vegetable, particularly in the Americas and Europe.

You say potato,
I say portato,
You say tomato,
I say tomahto

[wenat]

For years all I've said to students is "non-legato" never even thinking that there was a correct term for it  Thanks for the "potato"

[netzow]

Is portato related to Portemento (slightly disconnected)?

[barnowl]

Is portato related to Portemento (slightly disconnected)?

I don't think so. Check the definition of portmento at...

https://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/

It's a little thing but you might enjoy the experience, Netzow.

No kidding.

[barnowl]

For years all I've said to students is "non-legato" never even thinking that there was a correct term for it  Thanks for the "potato"

You're more than wlecome, wenat.

But please tell me how you teach a student to play portato? I'm serious.
My teachewr keeps telling me my scales are muddied (in legato) because I hold a note while striking the next.

I'd prefer to play my scales portato, but I need a method. Since my last lesson - Friday afternoon - I've been playing them almost staccato, but I sure as hell would like to play the way Amadeus wants his stuff played - the potato parts, anyway. 

[moi69]

u can say "non-legato" or "portato". i guess "portato" is writting for the right hand in chopin's studie op10n9.

[jlh]

I attended a masterclass by Phillip Kawin of the Manhattan School and one of his comments to the student performer was that portato is a "frustrated legato".  He's a great guy and an awesome professor.  Two of my good friends are now studying with him. 

However, if I may put my 2 cents in... 

I don't particularly care for the definition of "portato" that is on this thread.  I think it gives the wrong impression for pianists of it's nature, technically speaking.  These generic music dictionaries are all well and good in most instances, but they don't really meet the needs of the pianist in some cases.  For the string player, "non-legato" and "portato" might be similar in the bowings used (I'm not a string player so please correct me if I'm wrong), but for the pianist there are different ways to go about both of these terms, and the technique differs between them.

Non-legato is just what it sounds like.  It is disconnected, but can mean that you're not connecting the notes by means of staccato, or by means of portato, or just lifting the fingers off the keys prior to the next note you're playing.  Portato is a specific technique that involves disconnecting the notes by means of a wrist motion (not so much fingers here, and not a big wrist motion either) and in my mind at least it involves giving special significance to each note. 

When I say that I'm going to play a passage "non-legato", I'm generally saying I will do just that -- make sure it's not legato.  I will do this by articulating the passages more clearly.  There will be space between the notes, but it is not necessarily staccato. 

Portato is a wrist technique. 

Is portato a non-legato technique?  yes
Is non-legato always portato? no
Is there a blanket term for non-legato (besides "non-legato")? no

[barnowl]

Very Illuminating jlh, and I thank you.

So, for piano players, Nonlegato is the word I'm looking for after all, right? You'd think there would be a positive term for such a thing - like Amadato (to honor Mozart), or Scottato (to honor the world's best Rag composer). 

Damn!

[jlh]

Very Illuminating jlh, and I thank you.

So, for piano players, Nonlegato is the word I'm looking for after all, right? You'd think there would be a positive term for such a thing - like Amadato (to honor Mozart), or Scottato (to honor the world's best Rag composer). 

***!

HAHA nice one!

Yes, I've always used the term "non-legato" for places I don't want to be legato.  If there is a better term for this, I'm not aware of it.

Edit:  I think if anything, the correct technical term for "non-legato" is staccato.  There are MANY different ways to play staccato, and many different sounds that are possible.  The one thing that unifies them is the most basic aspects of the staccato, in that staccato is disconnected.  It doesn't have to be sharp, or short, or anything like that to be staccato, but it does have to be one thing to be staccato, and that is disconnected.  Non-legato = not smoothly connected, therefore non-legato = AT LEAST smoothly disconnected.

[tompilk]

i cant play portato 
or at least i find it difficult without it being chords... a huge weakness of mine... i j
Tom

[barnowl]

 

When I say that I'm going to play a passage "non-legato", I'm generally saying I will do just that -- make sure it's not legato.  I will do this by articulating the passages more clearly.  There will be space between the notes, but it is not staccato either. 

Portato is a wrist technique. 

Is portato a non-legato technique?  yes
Is non-legato always portato? no
Is there a blanket term for non-legato (besides "non-legato")? no

So, when you play Mozart non-legato , how do you play it, please? Disconnected, detache (with an acute accent). or...?

I think I am going nuts. I don't know how to frame the question. But please answer it anyway.

[jlh]

So, when you play Mozart non-legato , how do you play it, please? Disconnected, detache (with an acute accent). or...?

I think I am going nuts. I don't know how to frame the question. But please answer it anyway.

That's a difficult question to answer.  There are many things I might do for a given Mozart piece, and a given time in the piece.  I assume you're talking about a scale or something in the Mozart?

[faulty_damper]

Maybe this explaination might help.

Mozart's technique came from harpsichord technique which meant that he primarily focused on developing dexterity of the fingers to achieve many different kinds of articulation.  His body was motionless, his wrists still, and his fingers did most of the motions.  Consequently, if one were to play a scale like this and lifting the fingers high after striking a key, you would achieve the effect of "non-legato".  (In fact, if one were to play Hanon excercises the way he prescribed, you would become a "non-legato" virtuoso.)

What occurs inside the piano in "non-legato" is that the dampers quickly damp the strings silencing them quickly so that very little residual tone is left as the next note is played.  This sudden absence of tone leaves the next note to sparkle by itself.  These two notes are connected but not in the same manner as legato as one note is allowed to leave its trace as another note enters.

Unfortunately, "non-legato" is often mistaken for legato as it sounds similar and most people cannot tell the difference between the two.  Because the difference between non-legato and legato is slight, it has not warranted as much attention as it should and any verbal description of this sound quality is difficult.

  So what to describe of this sound Non-legato?  It is not portato as this is a different type of articulation.  Non-legato can be described as non-legato.  So the term for non-legato is non-legato.

[barnowl]

Well non-legato is the way I've been doing my Hanon and scales, this past week. Unless my teacher puts her foot down and insists on my smoothly connecting the notes, I'm on my way to becoming the next non-legato virtuoso!!

But thank you truly for the explanation.

And it's true that one technique can be mistaken for another - or at least largely overlooked. I just this minute discovered Brendel's Volume II ( another 2 CD album) of Mozart Concertos is at...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000041AB/ref=pd_rvi_gw_3/102-0589077-4478555?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=5174

...and one-clicked it. The first Volume is too good for human ears, but even Mr. Brendel's non-legato playing can go unnoticed in spots, I suppose.

Sidebar: I'm beginning to suspect that English is the second language of our mods. At the end of one of my posts in this thread, I ended it with a "Damn!" and it was replaced with just three asterisks and a bang. So,

****!

Please, mods, check it carefully and spell it right next time.