Inventions, sinfonias and piano technique

[oguzcan]

Hi. I'm a very late piano learner. I've been playing the guitar since about 11 years old and I've practiced music theory and ear training for some years. When I was 17 I decided to practice the piano a little and I've studied Czerny's First Instructor (not all of it). Then despite my late age I've decided to make the piano my main instrument when I was 18, I know I'm not going to become a concert pianist; I'm studying composition. But I really want to have good technique and sight-reading. I've read the book of Mr. Chang and I've decided to put every piece away and study 2 and 3 part inventions first to get a good foundation since they contain the basic motions for piano playing. I can play 1,4,7,8,10,13 and 15 now and I got a little tried from inventions. What do you suggest for practicing at this stage? Or anyone has any list of progressive pieces at this stage? Also, is it really necessary to play all of the inventions?

Thanks in advance.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

I am not familiar with the Chang's method, however, a teacher should advise you in what to practice. All in all, a teacher is always the best way. I hope this helped in some way. If you do have a teacher, make sure to ask him/her in what you are practicing.

[nightingale11]

why not ask c.c.Chang on his email?

[robertp]

You can't go wrong playing JSB. Not never, not ever. Opinions have varied over the years on the Inventions (2 & 3 part).  Two part have always come before WTC, but back when the three part were taught regularly, they were considered harder than much of WTC. I see that opinion no longer holds, but given how infrequently (comparatively) they're taught now, I'm not so sure. One of the great teachers from back-when once wrote that she would have students coming to her and play the Tchaikovsky concerto very well.  She had them play the D minor 3 part invention. They were crushed initially, but they saw the wisdom in time.

Coming from all this, I'd say that you can't go wrong with the 3 Part inventions at this stage -- but, obviously, having a teacher helps a lot.  No. 2 is usually considered one of the less taxing ones, and No. 1 the more difficult ones, although it doesn't look that way on the page.

I've been playing the 3 Parts a lot the last year, and I've found nothing did more for my sight reading and general playing ability.

[oguzcan]

Thanks for all replies.

About a teacher, I don't have one unfortunately. I'm studying composition and I ask some of the piano playing teachers or pianist friends to watch my playing from time to time to see if there's any visible flaw and sometimes I go to them for counciling etc. I'm largely self-taught in music (7 years of guitar 4 years of music theory and 3 years of ear-traininf) and now I find it hard to adjust to teachers. I mean, Ilike to read alot about these subjects and I improvise methods to study. Also, I record and videotape my playing frequently. I can't afford a teacher at the moment. I can say that I know the music literature well and it's very easy to find works, sheets and recordings. Is it really critical for me to have a teacher at the moment?

About inventions, I have prepared a list to practice. At first I didn't want to study inventions and I didn't wanted to study as well. I have played Mozart's C minor sonata (first movement) some easy Chopin pieces and things like that. I wanted to start easy Beethoven sonatas but learning pieces was like a chore to me. I figured that I should develop my techique. Then I prepared the following list:

2 Part Inventions (complete)
3 Part Inventions (complete)
English Suites (not all, 3 ones that I like)
French Suites (again 3 ones that I like)
WTC (about 15 preludes and fugues, not all)

Is it a good progressive list or am I losing time with studying ALL the inventions, ALL the sinfonias etc.?

Also for sightreading, I have the following routine. I collected easy exercise books like Mikrokosmos, Czerny Op.599, Op.823, Op.139, Berens Op.70 etc. I play throgh them about 30 minutes a day with a metronome. If I play perfectly an exercise, I don't go back to that. If I start to cripple, I go to another book and keep up where I left playing perfectly. It helped alot to sight read this way.

Another also I practice scales and arpeggios about 30 mins.

Any suggestions or answers to my never ending questions?

[debussy symbolism]

Good job on spending a lot of time on scales, arpeggios, Czerny. However.................

Are you practicing them correctly? Inculcating the wrong way of practicing to yourself will lead to a faulty technique, more tension and bad sound quality. This goes for scales, arpeggios, and very much Czerny. Don't take this as discouragement, but as a precaucion. You have to be at all times relaxed, wrists low and fingers always active and not passive, otherwise it is useless and even damaging. Again without a teacher it is very hard to keep all of that in mind, but if you are determined, and study the right way, then I guess you will be alright. I have studied some easier polyphonic preludes by Bach before I started my first invention (2 part), so you might want to look at those. Concerning Sonatas, look at sonatinas by Kulhau and Clementi, as they provide the basis. Other than that, great job.

[steve jones]

I would think that if you are a dab hand with the Inventions, then maye some Classical movements?

I am at a similar leve to yourself, but I try to mix it up as much as possible. Right now Im doing Bach, a movement from a Mozart sonata and two Chopin Waltz's (also having a toy with Chopin 25/2, but I dont think Im quite ready for it yet).

Point is, by playing music across the board you get to develop a much wider range of technique. I agree that Bach is fantastic stuff, but I dont think it would be wise to focus 100% on Baroque music. You might end up like like Gould and be able to play nothing else (haha, I hear guns being cocked as I speak)!

SJ

[debussy symbolism]

Actually, Bach's music does wonders to technique and finger independance, not to mention sightreading. However Steve Jones is right, it is important to coalesce many different types of music.

[pekko]

Another also I practice scales and arpeggios about 30 mins.

What scales?

[oguzcan]

Pekko,
Well, practicing scales always seemed like an endless sea to me and I was always too lazy to practice them. I've taken a look at the abrsm's grading list recenty and they had specific exercises about scales and arpeggios for each grade too. I'm practicing according to them. So, I've practiced C,G,D,F majors and D, A minors hands seperate. I can play them fluently now so I'm going to get to the 2nd grade. For arpeggios, C, F, G majors and D, A minors with a figure given at the sylabus, hands seperate. It became fluent too.


Steve Jones,
That's what I was asking for actually. I've been practicing only inventions recently and I'm kind of bored with them. I want to practice some different things but I don't want them to be hard. I mean, it's ok for me to practice inventions hands seperate and the time spent on them isn't a waste for me because each hand performes melodically equal. But it's really a pain to practice the melody and the alberti accompaniment seperately in a Mozart sonata. So I'm going to take a look at the grade listings. Maybe a sonatine by Beethoven? Or if that shows to be hard, something simpler.

By the way, I didn't know that the 3-part inventions were harder and WTC pieces. If so, I might consider putting them at least after than the English or French Suites. What do you think about that?



Debussy Symbolism,
When you are talking about the "wrong way" to practice, are you referring to the hand motions etc. or the method of practice. For hand mechanincs I try to imitate pianists I have watched and try to incorporate the motions that I have read from C. C. Chang's book. Other than that, I videotape myself. Would it be nice if I have video taped a performance and put it here for people to comment?

[debussy symbolism]

Debussy Symbolism,
When you are talking about the "wrong way" to practice, are you referring to the hand motions etc. or the method of practice. For hand mechanincs I try to imitate pianists I have watched and try to incorporate the motions that I have read from C. C. Chang's book. Other than that, I videotape myself. Would it be nice if I have video taped a performance and put it here for people to comment?

Whilst there isn't a definitive "correct" way to practice, there are methods that secure a better technique. One of the things is the wrist positions. Playing with wrists raised will cause your fingers to be passive and a horrid sound quality. It's literally impossible to play with wrists raised. Concerning practicing scales, a good sound and good finger activity is important. I practice scales many ways, such as alternating fingers in succession, or holding down one note and playing the next one and so on. (Hard to explain). Raising fingers high whilst practicing scales in slow motion is important, as it gives a finger a good strenght and dexterity. In fast tempo you won't have to raise the fingers, but they will retain the dexterity. If playing scales with lazy fingers, then in "fast" tempo the notes will sound slurred. Relying on the videos of pianists play isn't as reliable in my opinion, because they already have the technique down, and so how they really practice isn't really shown in their playing, such as the raising of fingers in slow scale practice. I think that videotaping yourself practicing is very effective, good job.

Concerning arpeggios, my teacher doesn't restrict me to just the "normal" ones. We practice the "eleven chords" aspect. That is that there are 11 different arpeggio structures played in succession, begining with C major and ending with a diminished 7th chord, with the fifth finger playing the octave, so like this: C, Eflat, Gflat, A, and C again. In music theory, the A is written as B double flat for theory reasons. I practice arpeggios in many many ways to ensure stability and speed. I love to whiz through them, but better not because that is not good for stability.

When practicing scales, arps, and chords, I not only play them in parallel motion, but also in opposite motion. With scales it is much easier, so don't forget to do that.

Practice chords. Before going to arpeggios, I practice chord structures. For example, the E major. I grab E, G sharp, B, and E again, holding down E and B, I strike the other 2. Then in successions eight notes, then treoles, then sixteenth notes. Then the other inversion, then another. After that I move on to playing short arpeggios, then broken, then long. After that, I move on to chords.

Then I move to other technical excercises.

[nightingale11]

I think it's good the inventions....I read Chang's book too...but I think you should learn other musical styles too. I for example now learn 3 inventions and 1 piece of mozart. This is for expanding your musical skill. Like if you only practice bach you may end up using the same type of music styles when you play pieces from other composers. You should explore what is significant for each composer.