exploitation? teaching exploits the weak and lazy

[stevie]

i have an incredible technique, and amazing musicality.

i did this all on my own, i never needed a teacher.

fact is, many people just dont need a teacher, and would teachers be readyto admit this? no, they continue to exploit those who dont realise they can work out these simple things for themselves

in the words of an anonymous friend of mine -

'hi, my name is alex glumol, and my opinion of the piano teaching profession, is that it isnt really that good, and its quite bad. in fact - i would go as far as to say - it is useless'

[joyfulmusic]

You must be the dad who "ifxed" my young student's piano.  And your day job is?

[ted]

I was very lucky with both of the teachers I had in my youth. They were wonderfully adaptable, creatively original individuals and had I not met them I am sure I would not be enjoying music to the extent I am now.

Having said that I agree with Stevie in one particular sense. There is far too much "stringing along" of parents and older pupils to make the whole process more drawn out and lucrative than necessary. I haven't the least idea about teaching but, for reasons of friendship, once taught a neighbour's teenage son. I had him playing any tune from a fake book in any key and making up things of his own after three or four months. However, two other beginners known to me took lessons from a professional for the same type of playing and neither could play even one tune after a year and neither had memorised any chords.

Since then I have come across numerous examples of people having dozens of expensive lessons and not seeming to be able to play anything.

I do not know much about the classical situation but a couple of years ago I attended a concert by thirty pupils of a local classical teacher. They all played the same pieces in exactly the same way like thirty robots - very lucrative robots for the teacher, no doubt, but I found the whole thing very sad.

I am sure there are thousands of good teachers, and I'm sure many here on this forum are excellent teachers, but yes, I have to agree with Stevie that there are a lot of useless money-spinners out there.

[pianistimo]

a picture is worth a thousand words, though.  i mean, when i watch my teacher play i think' oh, that's how you're supposed to do it.'  maybe this is lame brained - but i copy hand movements.  i don't think copying, in itself, is wrong.  what i do think is wrong is to try to sound exactly like someone else (to take recordings and try to mimic - or try to sound EXACTLY like ur teacher in a particular piece).  for most, this is impossible anyway - but u hear people that don't have a mind of their own in terms of where they want to 'take' the music.

there are many difficult passages in many different pieces - and if u simply said ' i'll figure this out on my own'  - you may well.  but, it may take a few years vs. a few lessons.  on the other hand, people CAn become dependent on their teacher.  take me, for instance.  i am languishing.  i mean, it's not even describable.  i can't live without piano lessons.  i need the next spoon feeding.  i'm not ashamed to admit it.  what is so cool.  is that u get a spoon full and u go home and whiz around like u didn't think u could.  chopin etudes were very difficult for me before - and, just learning a few things helped tremendoiusly.

sometimes u hit a wall - and u can't get past it.

[maryruth]

I don't think you can say teaching exploits the weak and lazy--it just helps give them direction.  I think visually oriented people of reasonable intelligence above the age of about 15 that are goal oriented and use to self study probably could teach themselves to play the piano and perhaps even read music, BUT...having a little guidance certainly couldn't hurt.

I doubt an 8 year old could figure out much on his own.  Most kids start lessons by the 4th or 5th grade.  They need guidance.   

Now, adults....that's another issue all together.  Personally, I don't think adults need teachers for the same reasons children do.  Ultimately, each individual is responsible for what he/she learns about the piano.  I liken an adult piano teacher/student relationship similar to a personal trainer someone might hire at the gym.  Sure, you could get fit on your own, but it sure makes it easier for some if they 1--pay for the gym membership and 2--have someone telling them what to do.

[pianistimo]

dear maryruth,  that is exactly what i meant (about the personal trainer).  it might be considered lazy by some - but i don't have all the time in the world to experiment either - so it makes my practice more focused.

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

No teacher, really? Have 2 regular people start piano, one taking lessons, and one "figuring out on his own" and see how much each one progresses in a given time, let's say 1 year.

[mike_lang]

Greetings.

No teacher, really? Have 2 regular people start piano, one taking lessons, and one "figuring out on his own" and see how much each one progresses in a given time, let's say 1 year.

Let's also say that these two people have a voracious appetite for music.  It's not that the one without the teacher can't succeed, it's just that the one with an experienced teacher (who might save him time) is at an advantage.

Best,
ML

[stevie]

do you realize *good* teachers charge something like 50 dolla an hour?

me love you LONG TIME fo that much!!

[ingagroznaya]

Stevie, I charge 70 dollah and I am surprised people even bothered to respond to your post. You wrote nonsense.

[chocolatedog]

i have an incredible technique, and amazing musicality.

i did this all on my own, i never needed a teacher.

fact is, many people just dont need a teacher, and would teachers be readyto admit this? no, they continue to exploit those who dont realise they can work out these simple things for themselves

in the words of an anonymous friend of mine -

'hi, my name is alex glumol, and my opinion of the piano teaching profession, is that it isnt really that good, and its quite bad. in fact - i would go as far as to say - it is useless'

Who told you you have "incredible technique and amazing musicality"?? Or is this your own opinion of your own playing?....................

[galonia]

I have taught piano, and also worked as a maths tutor (I am a mathematician by profession now) - and I completely agree with stevie.

In all fields of endeavour, having a teacher is not necessary - anyone can teach themselves whatever they want, given they actually want to learn it.

I have had many maths students come and tell me, "I cannot do this question".  All I say is, "Why not?  Do it now."  And they do.  I don't help them, I don't teach them, I just sit there, and they can do it themselves.

I always tell parents, your child doesn't need me, I'm just babysitting and watching them do homework.

But if parents continue to want to pay me to babysit their children doing their homework, then that's their own choice.

Piano is the same - students with determination work things out themselves, and the teacher guides and encourages, and introduces ideas which the student hasn't thought of yet.  But for a student to succeed, it is the student who does the work, therefore, as a teacher, I never took any credit for any of my students' achievements.  A pianist plays well because he/she worked for it, not because of their teacher.

[maryruth]

Yes, Galonia, you are right, the student does do the work.  I think the biggest things that a teacher does, particularly with young students is MOTIVATE and INSPIRE.  Yes, if a person is REALLY into it, then they are easy to teach because they are self motivated, but for those who don't like to work, then they must be inspired, and that is where a good teacher comes in!

[quasimodo]

Stevie, you have an incredible arrogance and an amazing rudeness, lol. The problem is that you are also an awesome musician and that I agree mostly on what you say.
Anyway, why being so politically incorrect in such a very policed forum? Duh!
 

[debussy symbolism]

Very true concerning Inspiration. A self teaching student might fall out of stray with failure and stop practicing. A good teacher would not allow that. Whilst it is possible to self teach, it is a much more difficult process. There are many things that a teacher is aware of, such as posture, hand positions, feet positions, ect that a student is sometimes not aware of. Also, what is written in text is sometimes difficult to interpret correctly, but a teacher can make it more clear.

[penguinlover]

Sometimes I feel like Stevie, like I am not needed.  Then I give the lessons and realize that most of what I do is encourage.  I am a cheerleader, telling them they're on the right road.  I correct mistakes that they don't know they make, but mostly I encourage.  We all need encouragement in everything we do.  If we never got that "pat on the back", we would certainly be depressed people!  And many of us would just give up.

[bernhard]

Actually, I don´t exploit the weak and lazy. I exploit the weak, lazy and rich.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[timothy42b]

For me the question is not so much whether a student could improve without a teacher.

It is how much they actually do improve with a teacher.

If the average student makes good progress with the average teacher, this is not really exploitation. 

If the average student takes lessons for years and cannot play acceptably, then this is exploitation, though not necessarily conscious.

I'm not sure what level the average student ever gets to.  Does anybody know? 

[lostinidlewonder]

If everyone can teach themselves anything they need to know then what is the point of having qualifications to do anything in this world? Are you trying to tell me that if I study rocket science hard enough I will be able to build a rocket which flies to the moon?

The reality is that in this life time of ours we have VERY LITTLE TIME. It is impossible for us to become masters at everything we attempt. With ANYTHING in life you will find your abilty will increase the more you spend time with someone who is much better than you. I find the best pianists are those who are modest and always willing to learn from others, those that are quiet, keep to themselves, hold all their knowledge back and disregard other peoples advice never achieve their potential.

A good teacher is not there to teach a student just HOW to play the piano, but how to practice, how to prepare/organise your study, the teacher offers encouragement, pushes you onward (since you have someone who listens to you play and gives critique, sets you expectations/goals.) A good teacher can percieve a a students musical thought process physically in the hands and also in the mind, the teacher then tries to show the student showing how improvement in physical touch and mental thought improves progress.

I have students who do not need any help technically, they physically can do pretty much anything they are interested to play, as a teacher I find these students much harder to teach because what do you teach? What do you teach someone who can technique is spot on and top class musicality? You aim to increase their rate of reading music and memorising, teaching them how to force the issue of concsious memory (mentally memorising what you have to do on the piano)  to muscular (forgetting about the mental thoughts and producing a string of notes via an automatic touch)  to sound memorisation (forgetting about the physical and using sound to cue our hands). In my opinion you can never stop learning here and the more people you talk with about it the better you get. I personally get better at these thought processes not by my own personal study but by constantly going through memory processes with my students at all level of piano playing. It makes my mind feel amused when I highlight say 5 ways to memorise a very simply grade 1 piece for a beginner student, it is something I would never do myself but it stretches my own imagination, my own pattern recognition etc etc.

The thoughts of everyone who studies music IS NOT THE SAME. How one person sight reads notes which inspires movement to the hands which produces a memorisation (conscious, subconcious, sound, muscular) thoughts in the head is all different. Some people seriously cannot read music, or they can but they simply cannot make the connection from what they read to the physical action it has to produce, or the process is super slow and inefficient, or they cannot understand have to develop/retain memorised material. Some students need to learn these tools before they could ever think about studying music themselves.

Some people have challenges in their own physical make up which makes learning by yourself very hard or even impossible. I teach a student with Asperges and he has a lot of difficulty making decision for himself, even though he could do it he will never have the confidence to do it himself unless their is some validation or his fingering is condoned by a teacher. I also teach young children who have been diagnosed with ADD, can you imagine how impossible it would be for these chlidren to learn music themselves without someone guiding them through it?

In the end the teacher is there only to guide, like a soccer coach for a soccer team. The individual players of a soccer team know how to play they have aquired their skills without one another HOWEVER, they can be a team full of champions or they can be a champion team, there is a big difference. This is related closely to the study of music as well. We all have these individual tools required to play an instrument, we might know how to sight read, we might know how to play notes on a keyboard, but unless all of our tools are working together in harmony we simply are full of champion skills which are disconnected, just like a team of champions who do not nkow how to work together, they will be squashed by a champion team, those who know how to work together.

[Tash]

reminds me of what our music ed lecturer told us- the best teacher sits at the front of the room sipping wine and makes the students do all the work. teachers are just there to make students think for themselves

[galonia]

When I first started teaching, one of my teachers told me that a teacher's job is to put themselves out of a job.

[stevehopwood]

Anybody who thinks ordinarily talented kids will get far without teaching has not taught ordinarliy talented kids 

Not many have your talent, Stevie. Luckily, very few posess your arrogance.

Steve 

[kelly_kelly]

Who told you you have "incredible technique and amazing musicality"?? Or is this your own opinion of your own playing?....................

Precisely. Because you don't have a teacher, you might be letting yourself think too highly of your talents, thus ignoring your ow shortcomings.

[c18cont]

Jack of All Trades,

Master Of None....

John Cont

[bella musica]

In my experience with the seven piano teachers I have studied with over the past 17 years, I have learned new and different things from each of them.  I feel that this has expanded me in a way that I might not have been able to manage with one or no teachers.  I think that you are limiting yourself to a very narrow perspective if you do not want to accept any instruction from people more knowledeable than yourself (in any field, not just piano).  Plus a second pair of ears comes in handy a lot of times.

Really good teachers are there to help students 'learn to learn' and to help them release their potential, however great or small that may be.  Even people like Mozart, Beethoven, and Rachmaninoff studied with teachers...