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Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor (Read 3188 times)

Offline kghayesh

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Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
« on: June 28, 2006, 12:57:25 AM »
Has anyone played this Etude ?? I want to know its difficulty and some guidelines and tips for tackling it.
If you compared it to Chopin Etudes, where will it rate ?? Near op.10 no.3, op.25 no.1 or near op.25 no.6 and op.10 no.1 ??

piano sheet music of Etude


Offline phil13

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #1 on: June 28, 2006, 01:17:21 AM »
As a matter of fact, I'm learning it right now.

My teacher gave me two options: this etude, or Chopin's 25-12. So, I would guess it to be around that range, near the middle (medium-difficulty relative to the other Chopin etudes)

What section do you need advice on?

Phil

Offline quantum

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #2 on: June 28, 2006, 02:24:08 AM »
I probably found the LH of the first page the most difficult.  Getting fluidity at speed while excecuting the large spans and jumps.
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline exigence

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #3 on: June 28, 2006, 04:09:29 AM »
I play it. Learned it years ago, still love it. (Phil - frustratingly enough, it doesn't give me nearly as much a hard time as 25/12 does; gotta love my technical deficiencies :( )

In my opinion, it's not nearly as bad as it sounds/looks (any recording, or the Horowitz in Moscow bit for instance). I don't think it really compares to any of those etudes you listed. The technique required of the thing is pretty different from the runs in 10/1, the simplicity of 10/3, or the arpeggiation of 25/1. (25/12, if anything, is more like it.)

The noteworthy bits as far performance goes, imo:

Intro: PLEASE don't bang it out. Play that double d# octave too loudly, you're left with nowhere to go. You have PLENTY of space throughout the piece to work up the tension. Throughout the theme, the same's true for the RH; easy does it.

Middle section: Back when mp3.com was still mp3.com, John Bell Young had masterclass audio posted on the site; I believe it was his suggestion to emphasize that A natural that appears just as the work should be falling quiet after the main theme dies away; can get measures/scans if you're not sure what I'm talking about. It's a beautiful way to transition, imo.

That middle, esp. from the low D natural octave onwards to the theme's return, can be stunning if done correctly. This is where Quantum comes in - being fluid and natural (read: not "punchy") with the right hand's octave jumps here is key (as it is with the entire piece really, but seems somewhat emphasized here to my ears). The same is true later in the piece with the pretty substantial LH octaves; I presume you know what I'm talking about.

I guess this can be said of several pieces for several of us, but for me, it was relatively easy to learn but quite hard to do well.

Your mileage may vary.

Offline kghayesh

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #4 on: June 28, 2006, 08:12:33 AM »
Quote
In my opinion, it's not nearly as bad as it sounds/looks (any recording, or the Horowitz in Moscow bit for instance). I don't think it really compares to any of those etudes you listed. The technique required of the thing is pretty different from the runs in 10/1, the simplicity of 10/3, or the arpeggiation of 25/1. (25/12, if anything, is more like it.)
I am not saying near these etudes as meaning requiring the same technique. I mean if Chopin Etudes were rated by difficulty. Most probably, 10/3 & 25/1 will be somewhere near 22-24 while 25/6 and 10/1 will be somewhere near the top of the list.

What I mean is if Chopin Etudes are rated from 1-24 according to difficulty, where will you place Scriabin's D# minor Etude ??

Offline thetrojanhorse

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #5 on: June 28, 2006, 04:35:05 PM »
All the discussion on this forum of "how hard" certain pieces are is absolutely idiotic.  What may propose technical difficulty to you, maybe a piece of cake for me, or any of the other players on this forum. 

Which of the Chopin Etudes have you played flawlessly?  Then we can begin to compare somewhat.

Try it, if you can play it, its not too hard. 

Offline exigence

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #6 on: June 28, 2006, 05:51:29 PM »
Well, I really couldn't rank it among the etudes - partially because I can't yet play the more difficult ones, partially because like trojan said, it wouldn't be of any particular use to you.

The best thing you could do is take it step by step, slowly, and see if it's within your grasp at the moment. :)

Offline jlh

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #7 on: June 28, 2006, 06:22:08 PM »
I find that it's much more difficult to memorize this Scriabin etude than it is to memorize a Chopin etude.  To me, that's the main difference.  The LH in the Scriabin (first couple of pages) changes patterns too much for it to be easy to memorize.
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
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  L   ______/             \
LOL "\         [ ] \
  L              \_________)
                 ___I___I___/

Offline infectedmushroom

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #8 on: June 28, 2006, 06:49:01 PM »


Intro: PLEASE don't bang it out. Play that double d# octave too loudly, you're left with nowhere to go. You have PLENTY of space throughout the piece to work up the tension. Throughout the theme, the same's true for the RH; easy does it.




Imo, I like it when a pianist plays this Etude loud in the beginning (I think Kissin plays it like that). What I like about a quite loud intro in this Etude: a quite loud intro, followed by the more quite middle section, build the tension up again and unleash the fury near the end.

More a matter of taste of course.

Offline exigence

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #9 on: June 28, 2006, 07:33:34 PM »
Definitely; having not heard Kissin do it, I guess I should've put that differently; I wasn't trying to suggest he should ppp it, I'm just a tad leery of playing the intro like the ending two chords :)

Need to go find Kissin's...

Offline phil13

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #10 on: June 28, 2006, 07:39:41 PM »
According to the edition I have, there's a Fp on the first octave struck by the LH in Scriabin's autograph. Maybe you should play the first note somewhat loud, then drop down to p. I do the same thing with the first octave played by the RH.

Also, remember not to bang out the repeated notes in the third section. That leaves the melody with nowhese to go. I play the melody and accompaniment octaves ff to fff, with the repeated chords ranging from mp to ff.

Phil

Offline exigence

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #11 on: June 28, 2006, 07:52:51 PM »
According to the edition I have, there's a Fp on the first octave struck by the LH in Scriabin's autograph. Maybe you should play the first note somewhat loud, then drop down to p. I do the same thing with the first octave played by the RH.

Also, remember not to bang out the repeated notes in the third section. That leaves the melody with nowhese to go. I play the melody and accompaniment octaves ff to fff, with the repeated chords ranging from mp to ff.

Phil

^ There we go.

Offline infectedmushroom

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #12 on: June 28, 2006, 11:07:20 PM »
Definitely; having not heard Kissin do it, I guess I should've put that differently; I wasn't trying to suggest he should ppp it, I'm just a tad leery of playing the intro like the ending two chords :)

Need to go find Kissin's...

I uploaded a live performance of Kissin playing this Etude, live in Amsterdam 2002. Now you can hear what I was trying to make clear in my previous post.  ;)


Download: http://rapidshare.de/files/24415321/Scriabin_Etude_op_8_nr._12_Evgeny_Kissin_Amsterdam_15_December_2002_.mp3.html



Personally, I really like the way he plays it.

Offline exigence

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #13 on: June 28, 2006, 11:30:07 PM »
Thanks for uploading that :)

For my tastes, it's just a tad bit too percussive through a few parts for a work like this; that's just me, though. It's still a fantastic performance!

(Not to sound fanboy-ish, but thus far, I still like Horowitz's in Moscow. Guess I can't upload that, though  :( )

Thanks again!

Offline infectedmushroom

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #14 on: June 28, 2006, 11:47:13 PM »
Thanks for uploading that :)

For my tastes, it's just a tad bit too percussive through a few parts for a work like this; that's just me, though. It's still a fantastic performance!

(Not to sound fanboy-ish, but thus far, I still like Horowitz's in Moscow. Guess I can't upload that, though  :( )

Thanks again!


You're welcome!


And I already have an mp3 and a video recording of Horowitz in Moscow, performing Op. 8 No. 12, so that's okay.  :)  (I really like Horowitz playing of the piece also, though I prefer Kissin's interpretation).

Offline jlh

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #15 on: June 30, 2006, 02:32:46 AM »
Here's the video of Kissin playing this etude. Note the misspelling of his name by whomever posted this file... "Kissing"... ;D

&search=scriabin
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
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LOL "\         [ ] \
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Offline jlh

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #16 on: June 30, 2006, 02:39:10 AM »
(Not to sound fanboy-ish, but thus far, I still like Horowitz's in Moscow. Guess I can't upload that, though  :( )

Perhaps not, but there's a place you can download his Moscow recording and also a studio recording of this for like $0.07...

http://music.allofmp3.com/search.shtml?search=scriabin+etude&sg=1&sa=1&ss=1&result=ON&range=all&searchaud=yes&rezult=ON
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
                 ___/\___
  L   ______/             \
LOL "\         [ ] \
  L              \_________)
                 ___I___I___/

Offline fnork

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #17 on: June 30, 2006, 10:06:37 AM »
I haven't started playing this etude yet, but I have a question: should you treat it as an excercize in playing octave-legato (right hand)? In other words, should I work hard on getting good legato fingerings or should I just play with the fifth finger all of the time? How do you do it?

Offline tompilk

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #18 on: June 30, 2006, 12:27:58 PM »
erm... i'd have thought it is more a lefft hand stretch study... right hand is pretty simple really... then chords...
Tom
Working on: Schubert - Piano Sonata D.664, Ravel - Sonatine, Ginastera - Danzas Argentinas

Offline fnork

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #19 on: June 30, 2006, 02:42:59 PM »
erm... i'd have thought it is more a lefft hand stretch study... right hand is pretty simple really... then chords...
Tom
I'd say that if it SHOULD be true legato, the right hand is quite tricky too. hence my question.

Offline jlh

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #20 on: June 30, 2006, 08:14:57 PM »
I haven't started playing this etude yet, but I have a question: should you treat it as an excercize in playing octave-legato (right hand)? In other words, should I work hard on getting good legato fingerings or should I just play with the fifth finger all of the time? How do you do it?

The edition I have has several fingerings marked for the octaves -- using 3-4-5 interchangeably; however, the pedal has to be used enough that I don't know that it would really make much difference.

I would classify it more as a LH study though, than a RH study.  The 8/5 is more of an octave study for the RH than this is I would imagine.
. ROFL : ROFL:LOL:ROFL : ROFL '
                 ___/\___
  L   ______/             \
LOL "\         [ ] \
  L              \_________)
                 ___I___I___/

Offline maxy

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #21 on: July 02, 2006, 09:50:15 PM »
played it and IMO, all cheating allowed on this piece.  It's hard enough even when cheating. True legato on RH???  Good luck!   :P

Offline phil13

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Re: Scriabin - Etude no.12 op.8 in D# minor
«Reply #22 on: July 02, 2006, 09:51:20 PM »
As in taking LH notes with the RH. It's already there anyway.

Phil