What makes music moving?

[tompilk]

hi. Just a "quick" question... well... probably not... but I want to know why you instantly recognize if something has a key or is completely atonal. What's the difference? is it the way the brain interprets it? Also, how can a sound (smashing glass is a sound) such as Rach 3 ending move people to tears, when all of it is just separate notes?
Im guessing it must be to do with recognition of patterns? Because that's all i think it could be...?
Also, people who dont like more modern music, is it because it has less structure and pattern?
if this is true, how can patterns move you?!?!?!
Well, I'm pretty sure that this will have been discussed before, but there are almost no keywords to search for for this topic... ah well...
So, how do people (totally non-musical) recognise atonal/tonal music to be different, too?
Tom

[ted]

I'll leave the questions in the body of your post to others who are more knowledgeable.

As to what makes music moving, I don't think anybody really knows. I'm rather glad of that because otherwise there'd be no surprises. If I couldn't constantly surprise myself I doubt I'd bother with music at all.

[tac-tics]

Also, how can a sound (smashing glass is a sound) such as Rach 3 ending move people to tears, when all of it is just separate notes?

How does an apple taste so good when it's nothing more than a clump of molecules?

We don't know enough about the mind to understand why we can recognize stimuli. Have you ever talked to a voice recognition system over the phone? They're AWEFUL! No one is going to have a complete answer to this question... though you can probably expect a lot of poetic personal philosophies on the subject.

What we do know, though, is that "music" is something that we naturally understand, but is heavily linked to our culture. You can think of it as an *almost* universal medium.

[liszt-essence]

As far as I can understand this (my mind has it's limits)

It's the artist that moves the music. The soul, the heart, the love of the artist for the music itself. For the sounds. A communication of feelings through music.

[prometheus]

As far as I know no one knows the answer to this question. I think there may be some theories but none of them seem to be stronger than the other.


I can't recognise the difference between tonal and atonal music. This is because I listen to atonal music as well. Normally one only hears tonal music and one becomes very biased towards tonal music. I am biased towards both.

The effect is that I can't hear the difference. Before atonal music sounds like dissonant chaos. Now I just hear tones and melodies and chords and just like in any other kind of music.

[bella musica]

I don't think there is any real answer to your question, but here are some of my conjectures...  (Basically I'm thinking out loud here)

If you think about it, talking is just a bunch of sounds too, so how could it mean anything to us?  It's because we can recognize what another person is trying to communicate to us.  Music is like another language, used for the same basic purpose as spoken languages, namely, to communicate. 

I think the sounds themselves do not move us so much as what we associate with such sounds, and that has probably been ingrained into us over centuries.  This might explain why people often do not relate to atonal music so quickly, because it is a relatively 'newer' dialect in the language.  For example, if you are just learning French, you probably would not respond so quickly to what someone said to you in French because you do not have the same automatic recognition to it as you do to your first language.

Wow, I kinda wrote more than I had meant to!  Anyways, like I said, this is all purely conjectural...

[Bob]

I think the brain is wired up to hear a tonal center and to hear lines of music instead of seaparate notes.


I think any of the individual elements of music have some aesthetic impact -- harmony, timbre, rhythm, etc.

I think music is also implying space which can imply emotion. 


Then if you add extra-musical meanings, that can affect the expression.  If it's patriotic, that's one way.  If there's a story, another.  If it has a personal meaning to you.  Anything can get attached to music and impact its expression.



A lot of people don't like modern music because it purposely goes against these things -- inconsistent rhythmic patterns, a melody broken up so much it might not be a melody anymore, structuring the notes in a way to diffus any tonal center.  However, people do like movies, and movies have modern music in the background, and they do like the reaction they get from it -- They just don't enjoy sitting around listening to modern music by itself.  To me (and others I think juding from movies), modern music implies implies less pleasant emotions -- being out of control, schizo, sheer terror, etc.  What average person would want to sit around and experience that voluntarily?


Non-music people would recognize atonal music because it would sound strange or unpleasant.  They probably don't listen to it long enough to change their initial impression.

[nanabush]

Having perfect pitch helps me describe how I find music moving.  Some people will not be able to tell the difference if a piece in C minor is transposed to C# minot, but I do and I do recieve a different impact in both cases.  I find some keys more 'moving' than others, for example Db major has a certain rich quality that makes it sound very romantic, as well as F# major.  My explanation can go no further than say that I relate each key to a different mood; I dont know if it's the frequency of the note, the timbre of the note being played or w/e else scientific comes into play, but perhaps these elements trigger different parts of the brain in different people, that's why different people are moved by different types of music.  I could ramble on and make up some insane theory but I'm just a stupid teenager  who doesn't know what he's talking about, so I just shared my [random] thoughts on the topic.

[quasimodo]

Sometimes, in very hot weather, I put the air-cond at max level and it makes the music move. It makes me wonder how performers don't get bothered by page-turners. I would whack the page-turner on the head, personally.

[rc]

I agree that music can carry nearly any meaning a listener happens to attach to it.  Association.

It also seems self-evident that our minds are built to recognize patterns.  Even if there isn't really any pattern, like seeing shapes in the clouds.

Also how the mind can become numb to a stimulus, boredom.  Like how roadnoise gets filtered out, or you can walk around all day without being aware of the feeling of your shirt on your body.  That could explain the appeal of consonance/dissonance, contrasting themes, or an unexpected surprise in the music.  The whole idea of contrast.

Symmetry.  Symmetrical faces are more attractive, symmetrical objects are better balanced (imagine walking around your whole life with one arm 10lbs heavier than the other).  Symmetry in music is appealing.

[phil13]

The contour of the melodic line.

Phil

[archneko]

well. I'm trying not to be the fortune cookie crap, but...
music is a way to express a person's soul, usually someone who has trapped emotion. The reason why some musician's music is moving is that the musician's soul is portrayed in the music he plays. The softness, and thickness of the music isn't going to make the song moving..(no matter what people say) You will notice that your music will move other when you feel great emotion when playing. It also has to be the right song. Pick a song that you really enjoy playing and listening. It wouldn't matter if its classical or not.

[prometheus]

No, the soul of the musician projects music. Not the other way around. There is no emotion in music. There is music in emotion.

Music is just 'dead' sound. It exists without humans.

[archneko]

so what, Im bad a fortune cookie crap...

[danny_sequel]

Our ears and the neuroconnection to the brain are wired for simple ratio of vibration
What more complex vibrations do to our ears is a sort of painful reaction of wandering
This reaction is eventually linked to sadness, malinconia, introspectivity and so on

The reason is simple. Harmonious sounds tell us everything is okay (hence happyness, joy, calm) more dissonant sounds tell us something is going on (hence screams, noises, rumbling and so on) There are evidences that the sounds of the voice of the mother (harmonious sound) is a vital component of a development of a baby and especially of his development of sound recognition

The major chord clearly as less complex vibration compared to the minor chord and that's why universally (and even without condition) when you make someone (even primitive people) listen a major chord and then a minor chord they always say the "minor chord sounds more sad". It's not a platitude ... there are studies that show the minor chord is perceived everywhere as more melancholic than the major chord

Someone mentioned simmetry and harmony as universally pleasant and beautiful. Something even more pleasant and beautiful is bringing harmony when there's no harmony and bringing simmetry if there's no simmetry. If we keep in mind the correlation between music appreciation and dangerous sounds vs. soothing sounds then the greatest pleasure in being off balance is recovering the balance. It's clearly more stimulating than being always in balance

Hence music as we know it steams from the estethic pleasure of solving dissonances by going back to assonant sounds
So there's absolutely no doubt that the association is natural and hard-wired in our physioneurology (hence all the studies showing babies, even without exposure or preconditioning, having a strong attraction to assonant sounds or solved dissonances. In face there are studies that show that even plants behave like babies in relation to sounds)

But clearly this is just a foundation ... it's the skill of the composer to use it to communicate.
I was reading a study that said that tonal music (as having a center of attraction and NOT as belonging to western harmony) is perceived in the same way language is. In other words if you take a novel or a textbook certain words have an high chance or recurring often while other words don't. This allows our brain to perceive a Mozart sonata as someone talking to us, the effect is even stronger is you listen to music while sleeping and suddenly wakes up and are not still totally conscious. In that instance music sounds exactly like someone speaking.
The reason is repetition. The world is made of repetitions (woods, series of mountains, the grass and so on) and language is made of repetitions
It has been proven that the most "unpleasant" aspect of dodecaphonic music (other than a lack of a center of attraction hence the feeling of unbalance) is the avoidance of repetition. Likewise it has been proven that when atonal music take advantage of repetitions to form more concrete atonal patterns it is more pleasant (especially to babies) and less cryptic for people

[prometheus]

If you want to answer this question you need not to look at music but at the human brain.

That music moves humans is a quality of the brain, not of music.

[rc]

If you want to answer this question you need not to look at music but at the human brain.

That music moves humans is a quality of the brain, not of music.

Music exists in nature without humans - birdsong is the best example I can think of.  I don't believe it's exclusive to humans.

As I go I begin to see the appreciation of beauty in music to be something more encompassing than just neurons firing, something more spiritual, difficult to put into words.  The beauty of music, nature, sculpture, poetry - the gamut of emotional experience, they're all related.  Not haphazard, but there's a certain sense to it, beauty in all forms share common principles.  What makes music moving is the same as what makes great literature moving, or a good conversation - they're all expressions of life, only the medium is different, and sometimes I think it doesn't really matter much what the medium is, in the hands of a master.

Another fortune-cookie response (I knew a guy who once get the fortune "support literacy - buy fortune cookies" )

[pianowolfi]

Music gets moving, seriously moving, when its sources are in the deepest depths of the human soul, of the individual human soul and touching the deepest depth of another individual human soul. Beethoven is a good example to me because his music is very individual and unique and though it is able to reach all the other human beings if they are ready or willing to be reached. Music gets moving when you feel like being face to face with the most inner region of another human being, like for instance Beethoven's, thinking his thoughts, feeling his feelings, being united in a higher sense. Beethoven did not keep any of his feelings back. He opened himself to share them with all human beings. That was his vision. That was his goal. Though of course you can be moved also by listening to a nightingale in the dusk in Spring. Moving music of nature. Another mysterious aspect of music. Nature and music. A big subject...
Just my two cents

Okay what the.. should this have to do with theory?? Theory to me is practical. All the theory I have learned during my studies was either practical or I tried to make it practical. Or someone else tried to convince me of the practical value of music theory. But if the original poster decides to ask such a general question here in the music theory board, it is after all not my problem. I just have these ideas right now and want to share them, hee hee

[tac-tics]

Q: When is music moving?

A: When the chord progression goes I, V, vi, III, IV, I, IV, V repeat ad infinitum.

[phil13]

Q: When is music moving?

A: When the chord progression goes I, V, vi, III, IV, I, IV, V repeat ad infinitum.

ahahaha I HATE that piece. 

Phil

[pianistimo]

the brain and the soul, as prometheus and pianowolfi say.  of course, i have to add in God.  He made the computer chip in our brain and our ears to function best within harmony.  there is a calmness to listening to extremely melodic and harmonic music - and a peppery awakening when you listen to atonal or something that isn't as consistent with patterns and harmony.  a sort of chaos.

music therapists are aware of this and can play different music for different purposes.  in don campbell's book 'music: physician for times to come' (also author of 'the mozart effect') he takes it really far by saying 'each illness is a musical problem - the healing, a musical solution....'

i don't take it that far - but there is no doubt that music has power to cure some mental problems.  anyways - he says 'the shorter and more complete the solution - the greater the musical talent of the physician.'  i would tend to agree with that. 

as early as 1930 - j dogiel published studies that describe experiments proving that music evokes definite physiological responses:

1 music influences the circulation of blood in humans and animals.
2 music causes blood pressure to rise and fall.  the oscillations of pressure depend chiefly on the influence of auditory stimulation on the medulla oblongata and its relation to the auditory nerve.
3 variations in circulation depend on pitch, intensity, and timbre of sound.
4 the idiocsyncracies of each individual are apparent in the variations of blood pressure.

by 1926 dozens of researchers in europe and america were in agreement that music effectively increases metabolism; changes muscular energy; accelerates respiration; produces marked but variable effects on volume, pulse, and blood pressure; creates the physiological basis for the genesis of emotional shifts.'

imo, this is where advertising came in - we suddenly have this relaxing  music played in grocery stores so we will take our time shopping. 
 

[pianistimo]

'the ancient doctrines spoke consistently of harmonics, the relationship between tones.  pythagoras' key to geometry, astronomy, ethics, and music was the ratio of numbers.  in his timaeus plato taught that tone and musical intervals created nothing less that the world soul.  iamblichus noted that 'pythagorus considered that music contributed greatly to health if used in the right way...he called his method musical medicine.  in the spring he applied himself to the following melodic method:  he would sit in the middle of his disciples who were able to sing melodies, and play his lyre.  to the accompaniment of pythagorus' lyre, his followers wold sing in unison certain chants or paens (usually to apollo who was also paian or the healer) by which they appeared to be delighted and became melodious and rhythmical.  at other times his disciples also employed music as medicine, with certain melodies composed to cure the passions of the psyche, as well as ones for despondency and mental anguish.  in addition to these medical aids there were other melodies for anger and agression and for all psychic disturbances.'  de vita pythagorica  ed deubner, leipzig 1937

now, as i see it - as a christian - i feel similarly in church. when i am singing words (vs only instrumental) it is 100% more effective to feel rejuvinated in worshipping God.  if anyone wonders, like me, why they feel differently when coming out of a worship service (after performing or singing music to God) - it is probably because they are beginning to understand what the Spirit does.  there are good spirits and evil spirits.  saul was ridded of evil spirits when david played his harp.  that is because the element of david's spirit or character came out when he played his music.  now, imo, in a congregation - you have a multitude of people there with a similar heart and spirit - and the effect is mind-boggling.  it is as if time and space are interluded with spirit and timelessness.  also, the feeling that God actually heard the music and was pleased to interact by inspiring the performers.  jsut as people can be inspired when speaking - i think performers can be inspired when playing.  the effect is for the purpose of calming souls.  the anxiety of the world becomes overwhelming at times.  God must have known we needed a day of rest.  to recharge and become familiar again with the spirit world.  the one where we rest in God's strength and glory.  it's not a music to see who plays the best - but one where everyone partakes of the 'meal' of praise.  it is like eating a good meal.  the players the listeners- everyone is doing something.  the common goal makes it different than a seance or anything like that (which i would not suggest, btw, and have never desired to) - it is reaching out towards God and asking Him to come into our reality and be a part of our worship of Him.

[pianistimo]

i remember one musical journal where the 'muses' were on the front.  it seems that people used to agree that ALL the arts belonged together and where one was found - the others should logically be.

in our fragmented society - it seems that they are not as interconnected - except with the help of teachers.  making this completely a secular idea - i would say in piano lessons - a teacher would his/her best to help a student start making these connections.

post pics of art
show some mathematical/form related elements
have a building with some architectural elements that make one ponder
watch a ballet
eat some popcorn and listen to the crunch

i forgot all the muses (as you can tell) - anyways - when you get them all together - the influence of music is more profound.

say outdoors music.  it affects you because the background can be a breeze, a water feature, some fragrant flowers, etc.

[invictious]

A piece is moving when you use minor chords.

[littleman713]

Music is moving when one can relate with music in such a may that it seems to leave an impact on how one should live, think, and express themselves. 

When an artist can show their love for their music, even if the piece is not perfectly played, it leaves the audience with a since of obligation to appreciate that artists expression.

[pianochick93]

A piece is moving when you use minor chords.

major pieces can be moving as well.

[squinchy]

I'm in the associations camp, although some sounds supposedly attract our attention more than others: sounds that resemble a baby's wail, for example. High-pitched voices get more attention from a sleeping person than mellower tones.

Maybe babies generally wail around a minor 6th--those are said to convey a sense of longing. [Or maybe it's just the Love Story theme and K516 quintet?]

[db05]

"I contend that music is a language that objectively expresses emotion.

Music is a language.  I would disagree that music is like a language.  The arguments of those who claim that music is like a language, but is not language, seem to hinge on the notion that "language" must express word-based ideas.  Musical language expresses musical ideas; music is the only way to express musical ideas directly and unambiguously.  Verbal language expresses linguistic ideas; dance expresses movement ideas; music expresses emotional ideas.  The fact that we incorporate "prosody" and "gesture" when we speak should not confuse anyone into thinking that these two aspects are integrally part of verbal language; they are separate modes of expression in their own right."  - Aruffo

I cannot start without comparing music to language, as music is a language. Think about your own language, how do you understand it? You learned it when young, and after a while you can decode the meaning of words and feel and act accordingly. In some languages, tone is very important, say a word with a wrong tone and you get a different one. Aside from the "longing" 6ths, there is a trend in English to go up in tone (7th?) when asking a question. (Same with my native language, actually.)

There are many theories behind language (ding-dong, ha-ha, bow-wow, whatever I don't remember  ), and I think they all count for something. Consonance vs dissonance and tonal vs atonal, I haven't really thought about those since I think it's all conditioning. Like most people, I grew up listening to pop music and by the time I learned classical, I was already very used to distortion and growling. No matter. I grew to like classical just the same. I don't believe in consonance all the time. Remember the Middle Ages, those days with nothing but perfect intervals? Now, aren't you glad we have "dissonance"?

[keyofc]

Why do people like to hear "I love you"?

Is it because of the patterns of syllables -
or is it the difference of amount of letters in each word?

Or is it - something else hard to define?

[pianoplayjl]

The fact that notes placed at appropriate places and a combination of notes and dynamics contribute to emotion. every note written by the composer is there for a purpose.

[Bob]

I was thinking dissonance/resolution and chord progressions just now.

[pianoplayjl]

And suspension chords.