Evolutionism or Creacionism?

[einherjar]

Thank's prometheu, that adds many to what i was trying to say...
Yes, the maximium range of Carbon-14 dating goes no more than 100.000  years old.
But other isotopes are used to date rocks and minerals.

And we are not even discussing proofs from astrophysics, solar system formation, and astrogeology... there are many more proofs.

Let's try not to get into Lucifer, Nephilim, Enoch, etc... That has nothing to do with this.

P.S: The ideia that large masses of oil are from big animals, like dinossaurs is completely wrong.The large oil deposits were originated by plancton. Even those on the desert... another proof for the mutability of the Earth... and the climateric changes.

[thalbergmad]

I is more interested in the rock of ages than the ages of rocks as was said at the famous trial.

Praise the Lord.

Thal

[ahinton]

I is more interested in the rock of ages than the ages of rocks as was said at the famous trial.

Praise the Lord.

Thal

Marc-André Hamelin's probably more interested in la Roque d'Antheron, but never mind. I'm not at all interested in ageing rock stars, incidentally.

Alleluia.

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

now...seriously - ahahahahahahahah

(mayla did this to me.  ROTFL)  everything is now funny.  ahahahahahahahahah

*u all made me go insane. 

plankton??  plankton left oil deposits.  ahahahahahahahahhhaha  hmmm.  you might be right.  say, what about chondritic metorites?  i'm beginning to think i'm really smart.

[einherjar]

Of course i am right...  Dead dinossaurs aren't the source of the oil reserves; dead fossilized masses of plankton are what became oil. Chondritic meteorites hum... That is being studied see this at wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenic_petroleum_origin

Before laughing read carefully the posts othere people write many illiteracy is as bad as analphabetism.

[timothy42b]

It is sad that in 2006 we have to discuss this silliness.

Evolution is all around you.  What do you think the H5N1 in the avian flu means? 

Educated people don't doubt the evidence.  Sorry, there you have it.  Creationism is simply myth and legend, ignorance and superstition.

That doesn't rule out God.  You can still believe in him, as I do, and accept what science has learned about our world.

6,000 years?  Look, we can see roughly 1,000 stars that are 15 billion lightyears away.  Case closed. 

[prometheus]

Actually, that we can see starts 14.7 million years away doesn't say anything about the age of the earth. That's about the age of the universe.

Also, I already mentioned the origin of oil. There are many different reasons as to why oil can't be created by dinosaur. There isn't a layer of dead animals covering the surface of the earth. In a forest we do have a layer of organic material mainly fallen leaves.

The amount of life in the sea is much higher than that on land. So in sea it is also possible to get a layer of dead organic material. Note that in the sea life does not only live on the surface or rather the bottom but all the way from the bottom of the ocean to the surface of the sea. So this is a much larger area for life. All of this will drop to the bottom. So that is a lot more than in a forest. A lot more.

A dinosaur gets eaten. So dead corpses never create a layer of death organic material.

[kelly_kelly]

Does creationism insinuate that God created the universe, or jutst Earth?

[einherjar]

Both Kelly... yep, Evolutionism is the truth... thank you all for participating in the survey

[pianistimo]

thanks for sharing guys, about how the oil reserves get there.  seriously, i didn't know that. 

kelly-kelly,  i think the conundrum for some christians as myself is not whether God created the 'heavens and the earth' but how distinct the heavens and earth were at creation.  between genesis 1 (where he created the heavens and the earth) and genesis 3 - there could literally be many many years - so is He saying that the 'firmament' was another kind of 'heaven' that was created around the earth at the time of our known creation?

this is my question in answer to your question.  personally, i don't doubt God made the heavens and the earth - but the verse in peter (quoted previouslY) makes me think that the flood that happened (at that time...it says) at the creation was probably the waters that was covering the earth and what God's spirit was 'hovering' over.  in genesis He says that 'darkness was over the surface of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters...'  (in other translations 'hovering')

now, if God had allowed for other creations - the world as we know it would be actually 're-created.'  this would allow for many creations (and many layers of plankton to oil reserves we have today). some think that all the oil reserves prove nothing and that could have been created in a very short time.  something about argonne laboratories making coal, etc. in very short periods of time.  i really don't know the answer to all this.  also, God can make anything look any way He wants - so if it looks old or new - it's really His creation.

my opinion is that our 'present' earth as it was at the creation of this present creation did not have any of the things mentioned that were created in genesis (unless they were old and had passed away).  for instance - the sun and the moon.  the stars.  (interesting that He never mentions planets, that i can see - unless the quote 'and let them be for signs, and for seasons - planets do seem to be used for various signs, but seasons?).  all the creation in close proximity to us...unless they are all included in 'lights in the expanse of the heavens...but even that is narrowed down to 'to separate the day from the night.'  i think this is talking about stars.  but,  planets ?  and what could God have been doing before He made the earth?  was He already thinking of us when He made the universe?

[einherjar]

The genesis doesn't mention planets because it was written by people, with the means they had at the time...

[pianistimo]

psalm 89:11 says 'the heavens are Thine, the earth also is Thine; the world and ALL it contains, Thou have founded them....'   was everything we see created in 6 days, seems to be ur question. (and can't see - for light years) that's mine, too.  i believe God made everything - i'm just wondering about the timing of the creation of the universe as it is - and how old the earth could be if there were 'waters' covering it at the time of this creation.

[prometheus]

Does creationism insinuate that God created the universe, or jutst Earth?

To the people that wrote it there was no difference. You have to know how they imagined the earth to be. To these people the earth was flat and it layed on a body of 'waters'. That the heavens and the earth were split by a firmament and that this firmament had holes in them through which the light of heavens shined.

So assuming god exists and that god told them about the creation their flawed ideas about creation they already had made them interpret gods word in such a way that the story of god became distorted and meaningless. Genesis just contradict that what we know now. It is about an earth that is flat, without a sun, without a solar system and galaxy. The earth of genesis does not exist.

[lisztisforkids]

Just out of curiosity Pianistimo, why the Bible? Why not say the Koran? Why do you beleive the Bible? And please dont say a quote from the Bible, you cant use the Bible to jusitfy the Bible. And dont say faith, you can have faith in the Bible but not the Koran? I dont understand 

[pianistimo]

i don't want to put down other forumers who may use the koran - so i will say that even though they believe Jesus was a prophet - to me, he is King, Messiah, and Redeemer which is indicated by the use of the word Christ (Christos - or risen one ?)  I believe he was not only a prophet but that He was King of the World.  I believe that He will again rule the world and return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

[pianistimo]

prometheus,  adam and eve were smarter than u give them credit for.   imagine they asked God why the moon grew larger and smaller (phases) and He responded  with an answer that included something about the earth casting a shadow. 

something i find interesting is the idea of God breathing 'into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.'  no one can yet explain scientifically this breath.  i think it is a part of God's spirit and cannot be replicated by us.  it has to be given to us.  at birth it is our first breath (and u cannot say what keeps a person breathing - and what causes a person to breathe their last) that is as miraculous as adams.

of all the miracles that one can see - the miracle of giving birth (whether animal or human) has got to mean something to the people who witness it.  how can something be alive inside something else without a lot of changes taking place to allow for the process to continue.  for instance - all of a sudden everything changes in a woman allowing the antibodies not to attack the fetus, for it to grow intot he lining, to develop to 8 -9 months, and then finally what causes the baby to be born?  there are many theories - the baby gets to a certain size - etc etc - but a baby could simply kill a mother and be born that way.  in a very few instances, this happens, but rarely.  all of the things leading up to birth are miraculous - but then, when a woman goes into labor suddenly - you realize that it's God causing the muscles to start to contract and push a baby out.  did u realize that first these muscles squeeze one way and then at the very end of birth suddenly switch and push another way?  what causes these muscle contractions?

it's  like the action of ur heart.  what causes it to continuously squeeze and pump blood?  the valves to open and not open.  i think how long a man/woman lives depends upon God and how long He allows their heart to operate.  if early man was allowed to live a long period of time - what is that to us todaY?  we only see what we have seen - but maybe God can pretty much cause his mechanisms to work as well or as long as He wants.

i guess that our difference is in the idea of what has been 'proven.'  can we prove early man lived longer than 120 years?  i don't know if any mummies have been autopsied so that we know any ages that are much longer than the normal human lifespan today.  it woiuld be interesting to see if lifespan and dna are somewhat synonymous and what causes a lifespan to be what it is.  some talk about diet - but i dont' think that can give u any more than 10-20 years (non smoking/drinking).

btw, i am re-reading ur posts again today because i do read and listen to what u say, too and am not just saying what i think without considering ur points.  sometimes when people want to prove the bible thru saying scientific things - they are not always using scientific thought to their advantage. 

looking up at the stars in the evening sky convinces me that of all the billions of stars and galaxies - ours is one in how many billions that contains man - life - sustenance.  how could this be chance? 

[pianistimo]

you asked about HOW (this is a very difficult questioN)  God created the universe by His Word.  His Word must be very powerful and as u said - have caused a bunch of reactions of various kinds.  but the greatest 'reaction' is that of people that are speaking His word (truth) and not their own.  all christians have a temptation to speak their own words, but the only ones that are powerful and true are God's.  interesting that u make this distinction when u say - it is not just the Word of God, but how can we believe people that believe the bible to be speaking the truth.  some christians don't even contemplate that.

handel's messiah writes about a time when all people will be praising God.  All those who fear him, small and great. 'hallelujah!  for the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.'  these people are called 'the bride' (rev. 19:7) and are being prepared right now to rule with Christ.  u and anyone else who wishes can be washed clean by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  this doesn't mean understanding everything God does.  it just means worshipping Him in spirit and in truth - and, in time, He will reveal everything to u - just as a father does to a son.  we won't  know until the end who is truly 'wheat' and 'tare.'  this is mentioned by the parable about letting the tares grow up with the wheat until the harvest.  so, we're not really to judge - but we can discern who is speaking truthfully.  if they aren't quoting the bible exactly - but changing it - then they are not speaking truth.  Truth is God's word.  God's word is Truth.  we don't have any truth in ourselves except for understanding some elements of this physical world.  but, it is passing away.  then, what will u have when all the physical elements have passed away.  nothing!

God says that even his name is 'The Word of God.'  rev. 19:13.  He has his own army and it is said to fight (smite) 'the nations.'  if i understand the bible to mean exactly what it says - there will be a time of 'great tribulation' where the armies of the World actually fight Christ at His return.  zechariah 14:2 'for i will gather all the nations against jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished, and half the city exiled but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.  then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when he fights on a day of battle.  and in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of jerusalem on the east; and the mount of olives will be split in it's middle from east to west by a very large valley...and there will come about in that day that there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.  for it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.  and it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.  and the Lord will be King of all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.'

now, i am switching gears and looking at what u said about How God created humans out of dust.  (i really have to look this up - but as i understand it - we return to dust - so it has to be a combination of everything we are made of going back to it's original components).

[prometheus]

prometheus,  adam and eve were smarter than u give them credit for.   imagine they asked God why the moon grew larger and smaller (phases) and He responded  with an answer that included something about the earth casting a shadow.

I don't see how imagining stories is going to help this discussion.

 

you realize that it's God causing the muscles to start to contract and push a baby out.  did u realize that first these muscles squeeze one way and then at the very end of birth suddenly switch and push another way?  what causes these muscle contractions?

That is what muscles do. contract. It is really no miracle and no more a miracle then playing piano or typing a keyboard. How do muscles contract? That is very simple. What activates them? That will be more complex but it is not very strange that the body of the mother 'knows' that there is a baby inside. I mean, it is not that strange.

Of course all these processes are complex and amazing. But evolution explains how all this was possible to develop.

it's  like the action of ur heart.  what causes it to continuously squeeze and pump blood?  the valves to open and not open.

Of course the action of the heart. As for the valves, they are naturally closed. When pressure is increased, because of the contractions of the heart muscles, they open.

i think how long a man/woman lives depends upon God and how long He allows their heart to operate.

Just two weeks ago I was very shocked that my father was diagnosed with a failing heart. He is only 49 and played soccer on a regular basis against people of my age. But now he is unable to do much. I guess I just have to laught about the fact that you think your god wants my father to die. And even if she wants to do that she has to come up with something else because my father is now on medicine. Also, I really have to laugh at a god that claims to be all powerful but that needs to kill someone through a chronic heart disease. Out of all things... What is wrong with a good old lightning bolt?

  if early man was allowed to live a long period of time - what is that to us todaY?

Obviously people didn't live that long in ancient times.

i guess that our difference is in the idea of what has been 'proven.'

You mean 'if someone requires any indication or evidence'. Surely one cannot argue about if someothing has been proven or not if there is no evidence at all.

can we prove early man lived longer than 120 years?

You can try. But when you determine the age based on the skeletons of ancient people you will find out most died before 40.

i don't know if any mummies have been autopsied so that we know any ages that are much longer than the normal human lifespan today.

Of course these don't exist. It would make no sense at all. How can it be that people in ancient times lived longer? Not many animals get to be very old. And humans only score a little bit above average. Why should humans of ancient times, without any medicine or high quality food, be able to live insanely long lives? And why has this changed?

it woiuld be interesting to see if lifespan and dna are somewhat synonymous and what causes a lifespan to be what it is.

You mean according to species? The age of creatures is determined by darwinism. Creatures get older when getting older is an advantage. If it is then these mutations get selected and over time they add up to something significant.

Of course the time it takes for a creature to become mature is the most significant property for determing age. It would be impossible for a species to exist that die of old age before they become fertile. They would be unable to get offspring and thus their parents wouldn't have been able to give birth to them.
Important for this aspect is body size. The bigger you need to be the longer it takes to grow to that size.
Another aspect is how long you need to be a parent. If you die before your children are independent then your children will die and your genes will die. If getting older gives you an advantage in terms of educating your children then your children will have more offspring. This means your genes get selected.

some talk about diet - but i dont' think that can give u any more than 10-20 years (non smoking/drinking).

Of course life style only modifies your genetic age. Japanese people are famous for these. They generally get quite old. Maybe even 78 on average, I don't remember.
But if you feed a one day fly a japanese meal it will of course never reach 78 years. Actually these flies do live longer than one day. But after a week or so they will die. They do not need to live longer. Maybe this is a silly example but this does show the main factor behind age.

btw, i am re-reading ur posts again today because i do read and listen to what u say, too and am not just saying what i think without considering ur points.

Ok, at least you are trying. I must say it has not been that bad this discussion. And of course this is an internet discussion, that is never effective.

sometimes when people want to prove the bible thru saying scientific things - they are not always using scientific thought to their advantage.

Yes, but this topic is not about religion. It is about the nature of life on our earth. 

looking up at the stars in the evening sky convinces me that of all the billions of stars and galaxies - ours is one in how many billions that contains man - life - sustenance.  how could this be chance? 

We don't know how much life there is in the universe. We don't know how rare our planet is. As for chance. Even if the chance is small. Small chances do happen. Like you said there are a lot of stars. The chance of there being life one one of them is quite large because of the great amount of stars.

But, the chance of live being on this one planet could be small. But, if there was no life on this planet then we wouldn't be there to observe it. I mean, the chance that there is life on the planet we live on is 100%.

Plus, chance is irrelevant. It does not support creationism. In potential it could only make evolution unlikely.

[pianistimo]

thanks for responding to all the posts.  i will refrain from speaking any more about scientific things because you obviously outdo me.  but, i wil continue to read about the things that you speak of and i hope you'll do the same with the bible.  we are inadquately prepared to handle each other's information.

one thing i do feel increasingly aware of - is the potency of death.  it seems so final if we believe that there is nothing afterwards.  i was quite shocked to find my husband's family partying downstairs after his dad died.  they said 'he ran a good race and finished.'  they went downstairs and ate dinner and finished it off with a huge cake.  i thought, 'these people are crazy.  don't they have respect for the dead.'  then, after looking at the food - i thought - hmm.  maybe they are more biblically correct than the usual morbid funeral. 

i really hope your dad is able to control his heart condition with medication.  i don't disbelieve in medical help or medicine - but i think God controls life (not dna as i mistakenly asked).  i think God allows certain things.  but, i don't understand it all.  as i said in another thread - my dad died when i was two.  it wasn't easy - but you get through life by realizing that whatever situation each person faces - they do it with the best of their ability and knowledge.  if they have faith - they might or might not have their prayers answered - some faithful people of the bible died from persecution, beheading, etc.  does this mean that God doesn't think they were important?  Christ died for us.  Did that mean God wanted him to die?  no.  death is just the result of sin.  that's all.  it's a given.  we're all going to die.  does it matter if we die now or later?  yes.  to those who survive it's worse to see someone else die.  we wish we could die for them.  would it help them if we died, too?  NO.  it doesn't help anything to start feeling deflated and unloved.  you just have to say - it's part of life.  i accept it.  i will encourage the person to face it the best i can - and tell them encouratgin things.  how much you appreciated their love and support.  how much you will miss them.  how much you believe God has a place for them (if you believe this - and even if you don't - let a minister do it if you want).  and, how easy death really is.  people say that it's like birth.  it's a re-birth - back to God and back to a peace and love that is beyond imagining.  a realization of God's eternal love.  that he has plans for us for eternity.  if your Dad is interested in baptism - now would be the time!  it's not that hard to say - God, I accept whatever your will is - and i can't wait to find out because everything you make is good.

[pianistimo]

ps the reason i say baptism is that 'flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.'  the eunich that asked about the passage 'unless you be born again, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven' - and was told that this meant that without Christ's blood covering our sins, that we could not enter the kingdom of God.  not that we had to reenter the womb.   so, as i take it - and as the eunich took it - he went and was baptised that very day. 

if your father is too tired and weary to have the typical joint baptism with several others - stick him in the bathtub with minister to pronounce him baptized - and consider your job here on earth to have fulfilled it's grandest love.  in fact, after he is baptized, consider it yourself.  you never really know the day of your death - because of accidents and things.  we try to be careful and sure - but there are so many unknowns and  yet- as the universe proclaims - the quiet love of God.

[pianistimo]

ps my grandma had a pacemaker put in and had quite a few more years after that.  i'm not sure what the procedures are today - but i thought i read they are much less invasive.  hope that all works out for your dad to live quite a few more years.  maybe he'll have to cut back on soccer playing.  pss does he get enough sex?  maybe you need to find him a gf quick - unless he's married to ur mom - in which case - you might not want to get so personal as to ask.

[donjuan]

not another one of these ***ing threads..

after wasting so much time on these things, I came to my own conclusion:

#1. People argue on and on endlessly on this subject
#2. Everyone is happy believing what they believe right now
#3. In light of #2, why would you want to do #1?

[pianistimo]

because love gives meaning to life.  ps when i suggested gf  - i meant for his dad to get married again.  i think loving God and loving people is what makes life worth living.  it's very tiresome to live alone mentally or physically.  with God we are never truly alone.  you can think you are - but when you pray - you have this instant connection to the source of love and the source of answers to all your questions.

[ahinton]

was everything we see created in 6 days, seems to be ur question. (and can't see - for light years) that's mine, too.  i believe God made everything - i'm just wondering about the timing of the creation of the universe as it is

A delightful Italian lady that I know once said to me of God the creator of all things "on the seventh day, God made Italy; he'd needed the first six days to practise" - to which my only possible answer was that on the eighth day, God presumably created patriotism...

This lady also considers Italian lemons to be superior to Greek lemons - but that's another thread, another day...

Best,

Alistair

[timothy42b]

not another one of these ***ing threads..

after wasting so much time on these things, I came to my own conclusion:

#1. People argue on and on endlessly on this subject
#2. Everyone is happy believing what they believe right now
#3. In light of #2, why would you want to do #1?

If you read Collapse by Jared Diamond you will understand.

There are quite a number of historical societies that disappeared largely because of their own impacts on the environment, etc.

We are finally at the point where we may be able to destroy the entire human race, or at least drastically reduce the quality of life, if we do not make some rational decisions.

Making those decisions requires some ability to think critically, to make decisions based on evidence and data instead of superstition and ignorance, to do the optimum things in the long run as opposed to the emotional expedient in the short run.

Creationists are as a group opposed to science, knowledge, and education.  As such, if they succeed in having sway, they may destroy the world as we know it.