Whose Sonata in Bmin is this?

[allchopin]

Simple question on the performer - hope you guys can help me out.  Very clean studio recording of only the first mvmt which I would guess is Arrau.

[maxy]

nope, that's not Arrau.

I don't think it's a rec by a pro.

[prometheus]

I listened to a snippet but it sounds like it that the person that is playing is struggling with both the technical and musical difficulties of the piece.

[stevie]

I listened to a snippet but it sounds like it that the person that is playing is struggling with both the technical and musical difficulties of the piece.

hahaha, arrau would be the natural conclusion 

[brewtality]

hahaha, arrau would be the natural conclusion 

His Liszt sonata is actually quite good.

[stevie]

true, but i dislike his musicality for the thake of musicality 

[Motrax]

Have you heard Arrau's Islamay (don't know from what year... it's a pretty early recording though... maybe 1950s?)? It's my favorite recording of the piece, and I've heard a bunch.

But you're right, Arrau does use musicality for the sake of musicality. 

[prometheus]

Is he arguing, in the syle of DSDC, that Arrau is too good a pianist to be respected? That he didn't 'abuse' his technique?

[lostinidlewonder]

Arrau no good? what?

[alejo_90]

Arrau no good? what?

Arrau is great. Stevie just doesn't like him very much because he plays slow. He prefers pianists like Cziffra or Hamelin, who have a monster technique wich allows them to play incredibly fast.

Best
Alex

[prometheus]

So it seems I was right. What absurdity.

[Derek]

I just go by which pianists cause me the most aural pleasure (DA SDC MEMBERS JUST...JUST SHUT UP RIGHT NOW...), and Arrau is definitely one of my favorite pianists. You know---I don't think he played that way because he couldn't play faster, I'm actually pretty sure he can book it when he wants--- he just doesn't because IT DOESN'T SOUND AS MUSICAL. to him. He's what we call....DEEP (translation for SDC: A DEEP pregnant cat  )

Is anyone quite aware how incredibly down to earth Arrau was? Check out "The Art of Piano" near the end. If I could go back in time and talk to any of the great virtuosos of the 20th century, it would be him.

Comparing his "Wild Chase" to Jorge Bolet's....you can actually hear some of the shapes that Liszt intended for you to hear in Arrau's version. Bolet plays so fast and cleanly you can't hear the feeling of the middle section, or the rhythmic first part.   Dr. Smith, my teacher, is an advocate of this latter style of playing.  In his lesson I always obey but when I come home I explore my own style and approach to touch....that's the point of lessons, right? To learn how to make your own decisions?

[allchopin]

nope, that's not Arrau.

I don't think it's a rec by a pro.

Any alternative suggestions?  My reasoning is because the touch is very clean and sure, and the speed is kept steady and controlled (and one of the slower recordings I have).  The recording is also very clean and the piano has the timbre of Arrau's - what makes you (and prometheus) think it is not Arrau?

[stevie]

Is he arguing, in the syle of DSDC, that Arrau is too good a pianist to be respected? That he didn't 'abuse' his technique?

no, the only thing he abused are many listener's ears

Arrau is great. Stevie just doesn't like him very much because he plays slow. He prefers pianists like Cziffra or Hamelin, who have a monster technique wich allows them to play incredibly fast.

Best
Alex

no...on the whole i like more blazing virtuoso renditions of pieces

but bolet is a case in point, he made slow sound awesome

when arrau plays slowly it really IS because he had to, in many cases, and his tech was substandard for all but the start of his career.

i like SOME things arrau has done, but most of the time - in his case; his 'musical ideas' dont justify his slowness, IMO.

[prometheus]

I have a recording of Liszt Bm by Arrau. It is one of the best I have. Together with Zimmerman and someone else I cannot remember.

This is recording, while great for an amateur, sounds bad for a pro. Maybe it is Arrau after all. I am no expect on him recordings and style. But it sounds very different compared to the Arrau I have.

Arrau is also one of the few people with the technique to bring Chasse Neige to life. Maybe he is slow but that does not equal bad technique. Technique isn't that much about speed.

[arensky]

Any alternative suggestions?  My reasoning is because the touch is very clean and sure, and the speed is kept steady and controlled (and one of the slower recordings I have).  The recording is also very clean and the piano has the timbre of Arrau's - what makes you (and prometheus) think it is not Arrau?

I liked this playing, but I don't think it's  Arrau, four reasons.

 1) The running 16th note passages on pp.2-3 of the Dover edition are shaky, as are some other things. This recording had some excellent playing in it, temperment, good fortissimo and playing and a good sense of phrasing in the lyrical parts. My guess is that this a is a talented young pianist who is in graduate school or doing the competition circuit. Arrau's playing had much more maturity and command than this. As Prometheus points out there are signs of a struggle in this recording.

2) The tone is wrong for Arrau. This tone is good, but it has a sharp edge to it that was never present in Arrau's playing, his tone was always smooth and rounded. And the phrasing seems "modern" to me; not sure how to describe that any other way...

3) Arrau was a Steinway artist and I don't think this piano is a Steinway; I could be wrong but this sounds like a Yamaha. If it's a Steinway it's not a very good one, Arrau would have had acsess to a better piano than this one.

4) The recorded sound is very "new" sounding, compressed and tweaked, but not by Columbia or EMI engineers. It's good sound but not like a real pro recording from the 70's or 80's.

About Arrau  (btw I'm not really a fan of his)  he was certainly no technical cripple, I heard him live in the 80's playing the Dante Sonata and Debussy's Estampes. Not only did he have a huge technique but an extraordinary tone color and warmth and feeling in his playing. He missed some notes but they were inconsequential, like Horowitz' wrong notes in his later years.

But I hate his records! Many of them seem dry, slow, mechanical and academic to my ears. I think he was one of those artists who had to be heard in person to be appreciated. I think he needed the stimulus of the audience to really play at his highest level, some artists don't record well.

[Motrax]

I do agree that many of Arrau's recordings are pretty boring (for lack of better words), but some of his older recordings are unbelievable though. I have him playing Islamay from the 40s or 50s (based on sound quality), and it's the only recording of the piece that I can really stand to listen to. He turns it into a poetic, alluring story, as opposed to yet another competition knuckle-buster. His Chopin Nocturnes are very beautiful too, as are his Brahms concerti.

[allchopin]

I liked this playing, but I don't think it's  Arrau, four reasons.

Thanks Arensky, I think I can accept that.  Although can't find the statements regarding weakness in ability justified, I'm not too knowledgeable about the rest to make an argument.  This actually is one of the strongest recordings I have of the sonata (at least in comparison with the first half), among Horowitz, Sgouros, Cherkassy, Sultanov, Wild, Richter, etc.

[Motrax]

I have a weak spot for Pogorelich's recording. It's nothing short of jarring on the first listen, but once you get over his funny-sounding (at first) articulation, there's just so much more there on such a deep level. It always amazes me how he can turn silly "Lisztian" arpeggio figures into melodic ideas. Not a moment in the recording that isn't music.