Looking for some advice for Chopin 25-11

[andrew_close]

Hi All.

I've recently started learning this beast, and i'm having particular dificulty with the decending passages in the right hand where the pinky must reach past the thumb to sounds the next note in the sequence. This happens several times through the etude, like in bars 17-18 and 35-16 (I hope I counted that correctly!). I'm having real difficulty bringing these sections up to speed, and slow practise doesn't seem to be reaping any benefits.
Have any of you had in depth experience of this etude, and if so, could you offer any pointers?

Thanks for any help

Andrew

[invictious]

Then play even slower...

That is your only way for Chopin stuff.

Experiment with different fingerings too.

Oh yea, congratz for tackling this beast.

[mike_lang]

You have to practice a couple times slowly in order for your pinky to know where the A is.  But once that is accomplished, I think the best way to do this is in rhythms.  Not just dotted and the inverse, but (since the pattern is one of four, not six) also lingering on the first, then second, third, and fourth notes of the pattern.  Do you know what I mean when I say that?

Best,
ML

[Motrax]

Yes, Michael gave good advice. Play these passage long-short-short-short-long-short-short-short etc in order to get the skips better.

As far as slow practice not helping - how much slow practice have you done? And have you practice just very slowly and very fast, or everything in between too?

For the passages that give me difficulty, I start my metronome on at 60 bpm to the quarter. Every time I play the passage well, I go up one beat (it's digital, so I can go up by single bpms), and when I make a mistake (or when I feel like I didn't really have control), I go down three beats. Starting at 60 per quarter I go up to 60 per half - it takes a very long time, but after a few months of this, the piece became more or less a walk in the park.

In general, I would tell you to give it time. I had two or three "false starts" where I'd begin learning 25-11 only to get frustrated with it after a week or two and move on to other things. When I finally dedicated my practice time to it, progress went by sporadic leaps rather than gradual improvement. I'd have a frustrating 2 or 3 weeks where I couldn't get the tempo past a certain point, and then all of a sudden I'd sit at the piano and play three times as well as the previous day. Don't get discouraged - if you persist and practice intelligently, you'll be able to play this in your sleep.

[ramseytheii]

In the spirit of the Great Cortot editions, I made a modest exercise from bars 17-18 that you can perhaps use for other bars.  I took a glance at Cortot's op.25 edition, and this exercise was not included in his "pre-practice lecture" on this etude, but I am sure that somewhere along the line he said something from which I derived this exercise. 
My music notation program does not allow me to conviently enter fingerings, so be sure the fingering is exactly the same as it is in the music.  The notes are in a different order but use the finger correspondingly in the original version.
And remember that 5 doesn't reach to cross over the thumb, rather it is a lateral movement of the hand that accomplishes that.
(see attachment)
I would print it out and write in the fingerings.
Also, the reason the pattern is repeated so many times when it changes into straight 16th note pattern is, I found it somehow helpful when dealing with passages like this, where a mental block can easily arise, to change the points of accentuation, so that your mind isn't always obsessing about when to change fingers in the same place.
Sorry that's not very articulate but maybe somebody else can say it better.


Walter Ramsey

[mike_lang]

I would like to add an amendment to my earlier post.  As Motrax explained, I mean long-short-short-short, long-short-short-short, etc.  However, it is equally important that you play short-long-short-short(...), short-short-long-short(...), and short-short-short-long(...).

Best,
ML

[bflatminor24]

Ahh, the great Winter Wind!

Awesome piece, if I might add. I learned this piece not too long ago and I remember how I struggled the first week, but then everything sort of came naturally. The rhythmic practice is the best way to build fluidity. But you must practice patterns, because the right hand is all about patterns going up and down the piano.

The best advice I can give is this:

The right hand is extremely tough. You must practice hands separately. Master the LEFT HAND FIRST. Make sure your left hand is memorized throughout the piece. Since the left hand is not that difficult, get it out of the way. Master the entire etude for the left hand. Then sit and carefully work on the right hand with your left hand following along. This will allow you to concentrate entirely on the difficulties of the right hand, while your left hand helps keep the piece moving. This is how I learned it in three weeks. Good luck!

~Max~

Not an easy etude, I found this up there in difficulty with Rachmaninoff's Moment Musicaux 4, Liszt's La Campanella, and Scriabin's Op.8/12.

[mike_lang]

Ahh, the great Winter Wind!

Awesome piece, if I might add. I learned this piece not too long ago and I remember how I struggled the first week, but then everything sort of came naturally. The rhythmic practice is the best way to build fluidity. But you must practice patterns, because the right hand is all about patterns going up and down the piano.

The best advice I can give is this:

The right hand is extremely tough. You must practice hands separately. Master the LEFT HAND FIRST. Make sure your left hand is memorized throughout the piece. Since the left hand is not that difficult, get it out of the way. Master the entire etude for the left hand. Then sit and carefully work on the right hand with your left hand following along. This will allow you to concentrate entirely on the difficulties of the right hand, while your left hand helps keep the piece moving. This is how I learned it in three weeks. Good luck!

~Max~

Not an easy etude, I found this up there in difficulty with Rachmaninoff's Moment Musicaux 4, Liszt's La Campanella, and Scriabin's Op.8/12.

To add to this, make sure that you have a good legato fingering for the left hand.  Cortot provides good fingerings.  I'm posting this for the fingerings, not the commentary.

Best,
ML

[andrew_close]

Hi
Thanks for all the pointers folks, that mini etude looks like it'll come in handy.
Having only been on this piece for about 5 days, I can see i'm expecting too much too soon, glad I became aware fo this before smashing into a brick wall and crying.
Back to slow and steady practise.

Thanks again.
Andrew