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Scriabin 150: A Genius under the Magnifying Glass
Last December, in preparation for the Scriabin 150th anniversary (2022), the new complete edition of Alexander Scriabinís works was published, in twelve volumes. Eric Schoones spoke to the pianist and musicologist Pavel Shatskiy, who was responsible for publishing the piano works. They talked about the composer and pianist Scriabin, his piano, the influence of Chopin and the A.N. Scriabin Memorial Museum in Moscow. Read more >>

Topic: Virtuosity  (Read 5973 times)

Offline Hmoll

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #50 on: January 03, 2004, 01:16:41 PM
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according to webster's dictionary, virtuosic means of or like that of a virtuoso. so how can you say that a piece is virtuosic??



The problem with your logic is the folks at Webster's are not musicians, and are not as aware of the usage of specific terms musicians use.

Let me give you a hint: If you want to understand and be able to use terminology that is specific to a particilar field - for example, music - listen to the experts in the field - professional musicians, professors, admissions boards at conservatories, etc. , and how they use words like "virtuosic" every day.
If you want to know how non-musicians use musical terminology, and you don't want to  be able to converse with experts in that field in their own language, consult Webster's, or other generic dictionaries.

The term "virtuosic" is an adjective that is commonly used in the field of music to describe types of playing, types of players, and  types of pieces. If you think this usage is incorrect, I'm sorry. The cat's out if the bag. Accept it and move on.
Ed, and the rest of the language police would say, "but that is not correct," to which I would say "maybe, maybe not. So what."

I agree with the other poster. There is too much bickering about language here.
This forum is supposed to help each other, not to lord anyones command of any language over the others.
"I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before me. In a moment it will be behind me!" -- Max Reger

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #51 on: January 03, 2004, 01:41:16 PM
well hey! lots of professional authors use the "alright" when it isn't gramatically correct--professionals in a certain field can't always be correct with using the terms.

i don't see why I should listen to some japanese professional pianist about italian piano terms... i don't think that kind of professional would be reliable... so think again! ;D
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #52 on: January 03, 2004, 01:43:38 PM
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lots of professional authors use the "alright" when it isn't gramatically correct


the word "alright" instead of all right, dears...

maybe we should consult linguistics in this area!
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline eddie92099

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #53 on: January 03, 2004, 01:55:10 PM
Hmoll, look it up in Grove dictionary, the definition is the same,
Ed

Offline Hmoll

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #54 on: January 03, 2004, 03:30:12 PM
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the word "alright" instead of all right, dears...

maybe we should consult linguistics in this area!


Why do you need to consult linguists to understand what common accepted usage is in a particular field?

No one is talking about grammatical errors here. We are talking about common usage of a word that is fairly universally accepted among musicians - with the exception of a couple of pedantic posters. So, it's up to you whether you decide to "listen to" the content of what an expert in the field is saying - whether they are Japanese, Italian, American, etc. - or if you want to nitpick about their choice of terminology.

BTW, Ed: As your musical education progresses, you will find that Grove's is far from infallible. Furthermore, I don't have Groves in front of me, but I'll bet in more than one entry/article, they use the word "virtuosic" in the exact same way I'm using it.
"I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before me. In a moment it will be behind me!" -- Max Reger

Offline eddie92099

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #55 on: January 03, 2004, 04:13:46 PM
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No one is talking about grammatical errors here. We are talking about common usage of a word that is fairly universally accepted among musicians


I have never heard a music teacher use the word virtuosic in the way it is used here. In fact, I have specifically heard them say that it is often used incorrectly.

Quote

BTW, Ed: As your musical education progresses, you will find that Grove's is far from infallible. Furthermore, I don't have Groves in front of me, but I'll bet in more than one entry/article, they use the word "virtuosic" in the exact same way I'm using it.  


Firstly, I very much doubt that it is (although I must confess I have not read through all of Grove quite yet). Secondly, you said "The problem with your logic is the folks at Webster's are not musicians, and are not as aware of the usage of specific terms musicians use". Well the people that write Grove are musicians, and you have just dismissed their definition too,
Ed

Offline Jemmers

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #56 on: January 03, 2004, 05:04:35 PM
This is becoming OLD, TIRED, and most importantly, OFF TOPIC.

Anyway, I shall now never use the word "virtuoso" ever again. Always remembering to substitute with "you can't put your fingers in the right place at the right time on this one easily" or "you really can't bring out the beauty in this piece easily"

So yeah. I give up.

Offline eddie92099

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #57 on: January 03, 2004, 05:09:59 PM
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Anyway, I shall now never use the word "virtuoso" ever again.


It's not the word virtuoso I have a problem with, it is the incorrect use of the word virtuosic,
Ed

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #58 on: January 05, 2004, 02:08:54 PM
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We are talking about common usage of a word that is fairly universally accepted among musicians - with the exception of a couple of pedantic posters.


hey, what's accepted isn't always what is right. and one of those usual cases is your usage of the virtuosic word, Hmoll. and since when did your usage of the word virtuosic become universally accepted??
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline meiting

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #59 on: January 06, 2004, 12:20:08 AM
Just wanted to mention that groves IS far from being infallible. In fact, their article on Fugue in the new new grove is absolutely awful. As was the original form of "classic rock" :P

mt
Living for music is a sad state. Living to play music is not.

Offline Hmoll

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #60 on: January 06, 2004, 05:41:07 AM
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hey, what's accepted isn't always what is right. and one of those usual cases is your usage of the virtuosic word, Hmoll. and since when did your usage of the word virtuosic become universally accepted??


It's not my word, and it's not my usage. That's the point, but since you asked, I don't know when the usage described became universally accepted. The word virtuosic has been used that way for as long as I have been reading books about music, reading reviews of concerts and recordings, listening to experts in the field. Language evolves. You can accept it or not, but it happens.

Language is constantly on the move. This thread, though, is going no place. I'm so [virtuo]sick of this argument.





"I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before me. In a moment it will be behind me!" -- Max Reger

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #61 on: January 06, 2004, 02:04:08 PM
yeah yeah, it just evolves because sooo many gramatically wrong people are using it. they couldn't anymore apply the corrections because the gramatically wrong people re hard-headed. so they just adopt it instead. like xerox copy perhaps.. it's gramatically wrong, because xerox is a brand but we're using it to replace photo. so it's generally accepted.
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline eddie92099

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #62 on: January 06, 2004, 02:16:31 PM
Or hoover, perhaps,
Ed

Offline Hmoll

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #63 on: January 06, 2004, 05:44:18 PM
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yeah yeah, it just evolves because sooo many gramatically wrong people are using it. they couldn't anymore apply the corrections because the gramatically wrong people re hard-headed. so they just adopt it instead. like xerox copy perhaps.. it's gramatically wrong, because xerox is a brand but we're using it to replace photo. so it's generally accepted.



I can't believe you are being this argumentative when  you don't even know the difference between grammar and usage. What Ed saw fit to complain about was the usage of the word(s) "virtuoso, virtuosic," not the grammatical construction.

I suppose I could object to your usage of the word "gramatically" if I wanted to (people are not gramatically wrong. It is what they write and say that may or may not be gramatically wrong).  

There seem to be two types of posters here: a)  those that want to exchange ideas, and talk about music and piano, and b) those that try to lord their supposed knowledge over others, and constantly nitpick and correct others here in a small-minded petty and egotistical manner, but rarely add much substance to the forum. The latter type does nothing but drag down the overall exchange of knowledge and ideas.
I mean this in all sincerity, and kindness. We could all use some self evaluation at times, and we should decide what type of forum we want.

I used to do a bit of correcting here, but I don't anymore for that reason.

On any given day, I will prefer someone who occasionally makes grammatical errors, misspells, etc., but actually has ideas, and has something inspiring or interesting  to say.
"I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before me. In a moment it will be behind me!" -- Max Reger

Offline bernhard

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #64 on: January 06, 2004, 06:36:15 PM
Well said, Hmoll :)
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline eddie92099

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #65 on: January 06, 2004, 09:55:04 PM
Quote

There seem to be two types of posters here: a)  those that want to exchange ideas, and talk about music and piano, and b) those that try to lord their supposed knowledge over others, and constantly nitpick and correct others here in a small-minded petty and egotistical manner, but rarely add much substance to the forum.


I must ask, what type am I?
Ed

Offline Hmoll

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #66 on: January 06, 2004, 11:22:39 PM
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I must ask, what type am I?
Ed


Ed,
There are times when you are the former, and there are times you are the latter. I could say the same for myself on occasion. What you post when you are more the former is more interesting, and helpful.
The purpose of this forum is not to always be right, get the last word, or make points.

I say that with all due respect.
"I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before me. In a moment it will be behind me!" -- Max Reger

Offline dinosaurtales

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #67 on: January 07, 2004, 05:44:41 AM
Spoken like a true virtuoso!!

:-X

Oops!  I didn't say THAT!
So much music, so little time........

Offline eddie92099

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #68 on: January 07, 2004, 01:11:13 PM
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Spoken like a true virtuoso!!


I think we are missing the point still. I don't have any problem with the noun virtuoso,
Ed

Offline Hmoll

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #69 on: January 07, 2004, 05:29:53 PM
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I think we are missing the point still. I don't have any problem with the noun virtuoso,
Ed


I liked the glowing letters in your signature much better.
"I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before me. In a moment it will be behind me!" -- Max Reger

Offline eddie92099

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #70 on: January 07, 2004, 05:45:50 PM
Much better than what?
Ed

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #71 on: January 09, 2004, 10:03:53 AM
LOL!  ;D I never realized how preposterous it is being super meticulous with gramar!
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand

Offline Noah

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #72 on: January 09, 2004, 12:18:21 PM
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I never realized how preposterous it is being super meticulous with gramar!


Grammar  ;D
'Some musicians don't believe in God, but all believe in Bach'
M. Kagel

Offline chopinetta

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Re: Virtuosity
Reply #73 on: January 09, 2004, 01:56:57 PM
ooohhhhh  :D haha! i was actually getting confused with the spelling! i did use to spell it as grammar. i'm mixing up the words...
"If I do not believe anymore in tears, it is because I see you cry." -Chopin to George Sand
"How repulsive this George Sand is! is she really a woman? I'm ready to doubt it."-Chopin on George Sand
 

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