Double Trills

[phil13]

At the end of the summer I will be starting Chopin's Barcarolle in F#, Op.60. Much of the plethora of double notes in this piece cause no trouble for me, but the double-note trills in the RH are a new technique for me, and I have no idea how to go about practicing them.

If I begin now, hopefully by the time I actually start this piece these trills will come more easily, if not naturally. So, my question is: What is an effective way to learn how to play double trills?

Phil

[phil13]

Anybody?

Phil

[counterpoint]

I don't have any idea, how to play doubletrills either     

I do play in such cases the upper trill normally but letting out every second note from the lower trill

Perhaps Hanon will help?   

[gonzalo]

I don't have any idea, how to play doubletrills either     

I do play in such cases the upper trill normally but letting out every second note from the lower trill

Perhaps Hanon will help?   

Remember Chopin was an anti-hanon-like exercises person.  Hanon will be a waste of time.

[phil13]

I don't have any idea, how to play doubletrills either     

I do play in such cases the upper trill normally but letting out every second note from the lower trill

Perhaps Hanon will help?   

Remember Chopin was an anti-hanon-like exercises person. Hanon will be a waste of time.

Yeah, *** Hanon. I hated it as a kid, I hate it now.

With these trills especially, you really cannot just trill the top note, as there are actually two trill signs- one for the top note and one for the bottom note. Is it just a matter of practice? If so, how would my wrist and the rest of my arm come into play to facilitate execution?

Phil

[counterpoint]

I hate Hanon as much as you do. That was not a serious proposal from me!

But I really can't play this sort of double trills. It's really impossible for me.

[Motrax]

Use the metronome!

Generally, it's a good idea to have some underlying beat in mind when playing a trill, as opposed to just playing two notes "fast." If you don't have comfortable double-trill technique right now, practice very slowly with a metronome, dilligently, every day. Just start each practice period with 5 or 10 minutes of a single trill, and make sure you're playing very evenly. It's even more boring than Hanon, but after a few dedicated weeks, you'll be able to play it well enough.

I find double-trills (and double-notes in general) a particularly difficult technique. I learned Chopin's double-note etude, and for a little while I could play it competently, but the moment I stopped practicing it my double notes went down the drain. I think it's important to practice some lesser-used techniques every day if they aren't in repertoire you're currently playing. With the trills, it's important to keep up the dedicated practice even after you begin to feel comfortable with them - otherwise, you'll lose them and will have to start another regimen of boring exercising.

[gonzalo]

Use the metronome!

Generally, it's a good idea to have some underlying beat in mind when playing a trill, as opposed to just playing two notes "fast." If you don't have comfortable double-trill technique right now, practice very slowly with a metronome, dilligently, every day. Just start each practice period with 5 or 10 minutes of a single trill, and make sure you're playing very evenly. It's even more boring than Hanon, but after a few dedicated weeks, you'll be able to play it well enough.

I find double-trills (and double-notes in general) a particularly difficult technique. I learned Chopin's double-note etude, and for a little while I could play it competently, but the moment I stopped practicing it my double notes went down the drain. I think it's important to practice some lesser-used techniques every day if they aren't in repertoire you're currently playing. With the trills, it's important to keep up the dedicated practice even after you begin to feel comfortable with them - otherwise, you'll lose them and will have to start another regimen of boring exercising.

Real technique is natural and doesn't need to be practised.

[Motrax]

And where does one acquire "real technique?" And what is "real technique" as opposed to other sorts of technique?

Technique is certainly natural once you acquire it, but like anything else in life, it requires work to acquire and work to retain. It's much easier to re-learn something than to work at it for the first time, but why is it that we can't take 3-year breaks from the piano and come back sounding just as good as we were before the break?

Your statement was rather unconstructive and useless. Perhaps you'd like to explain yourself further, in a more detailed, helpful manner?

[counterpoint]

Motrax, you have a very cool signature 

About the double trill exercises: no, I won't do that. I'm too old, to waste my time with such stupid activities 

There are so many nice pieces, which don't include double trills - and by the way, I will play Chopin's Barcarole quite without real double trills. I'm a very bad person 

[phil13]

Motrax, you have a very cool signature 

About the double trill exercises: no, I won't do that. I'm too old, to waste my time with such stupid activities 

There are so many nice pieces, which don't include double trills - and by the way, I will play Chopin's Barcarole quite without real double trills. I'm a very bad person 

Blasphemer! 

So is there ANYBODY who already knows how to play these? I'm not really concerned with fingering- that is already there in the music. What I need is how to position my arms, wrists, etc. to make it as EASY as possible. I realize that is still difficult, but there is an obvious difference between super-tensed and relaxed.

Maybe I should request the help of the teachers on this forum?

Phil

[pianiststrongbad]

My double notes are one of my major technical weaknesses, I can play op. 25 no. 6 but only at two thirds tempo.  I recommend anybody who wants to work on double notes does the same.  It even opens up with a trill. 
Regarding this specific passage, I think Motrax hit the nail right on the head, get a metronome and start out slowly and do your trill measured.  Gradually speed it upI have never played this piece so I can't give any specific advice.

[lukeskywalker]

It needs to be worked out by using forearm rotation. At least, that helps a lot if you are used to just tensing up and panicking from the feeling of the double notes (used to be the case for me)

I found it extremely helpful to work with the double notes, and other intervals, like described in this short clip below ... It still takes some work, its no miracle cure .. And figuring out how to do this motion is just one component of playing double notes .. it needs to work perfectly with the fingers moving, the upper arm (or any other bodypart) not tensing up etc... I highly recommend studying the other videos from this teacher as well.

[counterpoint]

lukeskywalker, that sounds blazing interesting, you explained this playing mouvement and feeling  really wonderful.

Thanks a lot, I will try this method intensively, perhaps it's not already all days evening (or as you say this in english  )

[Motrax]

Yeah, Luke described that nicely. When I've really nailed a trill, it feels like I'm floating above the keyboard.

Schnabel said lots of funny things about piano... you can find some quotes of his on google.

[persona]

What do you mean by "double notes"?