chopin etude 1

[ax166]

i'm trying to play chopin's first etude (op10), I know it by heart now, but i don't manage to go very fast because it hurts my right arm!! does anyone know a tip to play it fast without losing his arm?? thanks!

[cziffra]

the goal of this piece, to my understanding anyway, is to make you're wrist work with supple freedom.  it works by concentrating on the lateral movement of the wrist only- your wrist must be parallel to the keys at all times.  it's like a ufo going left to right, with no swaying from side to side, rather than a helicopter, which needs to tilt.  

that's probably the silliest analogy i could have used but it's so hard to describe these things in words.

[Hmoll]

If you experience tension or pain in playing this - or any of more virtuosic etudes by Chopin - you are doing something wrong.

Perhaps you are reaching too much with your fingers.

[eddie92099]

virtuosic etudes

So we are speaking in oxymorons now are we?
Ed

[Hmoll]

So we are speaking in oxymorons now are we?
Ed

Oxymoron - air bag (ie "oxy") named Ed (ie "moron).

[BoliverAllmon]

Oxymoron - air bag (ie "oxy") named Ed (ie "moron).

now that is quite funny.

boliver

[IgnazPaderewski]

Very funny..... Ed should take lessons in witty put downs from you.....

Anyway, on to the topic. HOW DO YOU PLAY THIS PIECE!??? ARGHHH!!! I find this piece completely impossible, it is so ridiculous. I can dash off a couple of the arpeggios fine, but by line two my performance has begun to explore keys that Chopin did not intend and probably could not even imagine. It is soooooooo bloody difficult!

[thracozaag]

Very funny..... Ed should take lessons in witty put downs from you.....

Anyway, on to the topic. HOW DO YOU PLAY THIS PIECE!??? ARGHHH!!! I find this piece completely impossible, it is so ridiculous. I can dash off a couple of the arpeggios fine, but by line two my performance has begun to explore keys that Chopin did not intend and probably could not even imagine. It is soooooooo bloody difficult!

 Use the cartwheel.  

[meiting]

it's a rollercoaster ride dude.

[zoolander]

It is no doubt that the 10-1 is hard. It is common knowledge that many great pianists consider it the hardest etude of them all. Ashkenazy rehearsed this etude for 3 years before playing it on concert.
The funny thing though, is that most people, like myself too, don't see the difficulties before practising it for a while. I've tried to practise it several times during the last year, but i've given up every time. I could get it up in speed to about 130 (quarters a min.) without missing too much, but then my hand positioning would look like crap, and it would be exhausting as hell towards the end, so I gave it all up. I've still not discovered the proper way of practising this one.
As mentioned above the wrist shall only move parallell with the keyboard and not wobble at all. Your arm must follow the moves of your hand. I think a important thing is to make sure your thumb always takes the shortest way between the keys, once it has played, it shall at once seek for the next position. (damn its hard to try explain something you don't know fully in a foreign language:))

[e60m5]

If you experience any pain at all playing this piece, you MUST stop before you suffer an injury.

Return to it later.

[DAwud7]

I just started working on this piece getting it up too speed perfectly could be hard i imagine. I just focus on the finger that plays after my thumb and dont sway my wrist at all and the parts of it i have memorized i can play up too speed maybe even faster without missing notes.

[eddie92099]

Oxymoron - air bag (ie "oxy") named Ed (ie "moron).

Was it absolutely necessary to lower the tone? I don't personally insult you ,
Ed

[Hmoll]

Was it absolutely necessary to lower the tone? I don't personally insult you ,
Ed

Ed,
Looks like you didn't get a sense of humor for Christmas.

I was kidding. Don't take yourself so seriously.

Regards,
Hmoll

And yes, the one redeaming feature of your posts is you do not lower yourself to personal attacks/insults.

[chsmike2345]

Rule of thumb (or arm) -
IF IT HURTS, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG

[BoliverAllmon]

And yes, the one redeaming feature of your posts is you do not lower yourself to personal attacks/insults.

Depends on your definition of personal attacks/insults.

boliver

[meiting]

Rule of thumb (or arm) -
IF IT HURTS, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG

Either that or you just need to build up your muscles. That's what I do.

The only "pain" you really have to be careful with is tendons. Muscle pain is not that big of a deal, as long as you don't overdo it. When an olympic athlete is in training they go through lots of muscle pain. Same with piano. But if you start getting tight, stretch. If you start having tendon pain, stop and get a good massage cuz you don't want tendonitis.

[cziffra]

how do you know if you've got tendonitis?

[Chitch]

Your C major scale has more accidentals then your chromatic.

[Hmoll]

Either that or you just need to build up your muscles. That's what I do.

The only "pain" you really have to be careful with is tendons. Muscle pain is not that big of a deal, as long as you don't overdo it. When an olympic athlete is in training they go through lots of muscle pain. Same with piano. But if you start getting tight, stretch. If you start having tendon pain, stop and get a good massage cuz you don't want tendonitis.

Meiting,
I will defer to your experience, but I find it hard to agree with you for a couple reasons:

1) Piano students often have difficulty differentiating between muscle and tendon pain.

2) One of the objectives of the Chopin etudes is not to build up endurance or muscles, but to learn how to play them in a way that you do not get tired.

I am not trying to be argumentative. What I just said is fundamental to my own approach to playing. Please let me know what you think.

Regards.

[meiting]

1) Piano students often have difficulty differentiating between muscle and tendon pain.

I completely agree with you. However, if you CAN differentiate between the two, then you would know when you're on safe ground - muscle pain is usually not a problem, as long as you're not overusing the muscles.

2) One of the objectives of the Chopin etudes is not to build up endurance or muscles, but to learn how to play them in a way that you do not get tired.

I can only agree partially with you. That is certainly one of the objectives for all pieces, but it does not alway happen. Also, one of the ways to play so that you don't get tired is to build up more muscles or endurance. (or stamina. whatever you want to call it). There is no way to play op. 10 no. 2 and not get tired in the middle, unless you've practiced a lot, and whether you get muscle pain or not the simple fact that you have practiced it means that you have built up endurance. There is not a single person in this world who can pick up this etude and play it, and if there is, then that person already HAS the endurance. Isn't that what practicing is ultimately?

I am not trying to be argumentative. What I just said is fundamental to my own approach to playing. Please let me know what you think.

I am also not trying to be argumentative, because I think we are saying similar things, but in different ways, and I take it slightly further than you do. The simple fact that you practice, and after you practice you can play faster and more accurately (of course that's only one of the effects) means that you are building up endurance and stamina. I'm just trying to point out that if you get muscle pain while you're doing it you don't have to stop IMMEDIATELY, because it's muscle pain. But if you get tendon pains you MUST stop, and massage it, because tendonitis is not something to be played around with

Cziffra, If you have tendonitis, you would have problems (in other words, pain) rotating a joint, whichever joint you have tendonitis in. Things to look out for when practicing: tightness in your lower half of your arms (hold your arms horizontally in playing piano position, and the muscles below your bones is what I'm talking about). Tightness above is usually ok, because of the group of muscles directly related to your fingers. The muscles under is related to your entire hand, and there are several tendons in the middle of it. If you get tightness there, stop immediately and stretch your hand up, pulling the lower tendons straight, and do that for a while. it'll hurt when you stretch but at least you're less likely to get tendonitis that way.

Also, generally it is good to stretch your hands before you play. I stretch mine almost constantly whenever I'm not doing anything else with them. Between fingers, wrist up and down, elbows, arms, etc.

have fun practicing:P

mt

[steinway88]

I play 3 chopin etudes the C major no1 op10, the c minor no12 op10 ''Revolutionary'' and the no2 op10. All 3 have some kind of technique you must workout. The C major works out arpeggiation. The reason why you hand hurt is that if you lift your fingers too high your muscles of your are getting streched out too far. Try to keep your fingers as close as possible to the keys.

[Robert_le_diable]

This etude is, according to many famous pianists as for example Horowitz (who actually stated that it was impossible to perfect it in right tempo), among the hardest etude ever written. One should have that in mind before practising this piece.
So it will take much more time than what you normally need to learn a piece.

It is of course composed as an arpeggio exercise and for developing and stretching the right hand. Also, it is likely a very clever rewrite of Bach's Prelude no.1 from Well-Tempered Klavier I. Chopin must have done this intentionally as a tribute to Bach.

I learnt this piece by starting it off in half tempo and memorize each section perfectly before moving on to next section (it is built up in three sections, bar 1-16, 17-47 and 48-79) and then gradually speed up the piece and adding dynamics and accents.
It is a really good practise even if you do not succeed to make it up in b=176.
There are some bars I find particular difficult as 30, 32 and 42-44.

After learning this piece, I see it as you have two choices when performing it. Either you make it perfect and slower or fast with minor errors, though you must always set the last key in each arpeggio when you go up and first when you go down and keep the speed approximately constant. Otherwise it will sound very crappy (left hand must be perfect of course).
And approach it with the attitude that you will likely never really be able to finish it but have to work on it constantly.

I enjoy to play it very much and will likely never ever get bored with it. Much more fun to use as an exercise rather than normal arpeggio exercises. I play it daily 3-6 times.

[cziffra]

and for fun, transpose it into c sharp!

[thracozaag]

and for fun, transpose it into c sharp!

 Don't give Mei-Ting any more ideas (he can play 10 #2 in Bb minor :-/)
 Godowsky has a version for the left of 10 #1 in Db major...quite beautiful.

[Robert_le_diable]

and for fun, transpose it into c sharp!

Interesting!

[gosch]

Has anybody looked into the "Cortot-edition" of Chopin's etudes ?
I wonder if Cortot can give any special advice for practising, particularly the Op 10 No 1.

Gosch

[meiting]

and for fun, transpose it into c sharp!

Yeah. it's fun. See if you can achieve the same accuracy level with that also.

Or Op. 10 no. 5 in G major. That's a good one.

The best is still op. 10 no. 2 in B-flat minor

[gosch]

Yeah. it's fun. See if you can achieve the same accuracy level with that also.

Or Op. 10 no. 5 in G major. That's a good one.

The best is still op. 10 no. 2 in B-flat minor

So you're saying the Cortot-edition gives good advice for practising ?
How detailed are these explanations of Mr. Cortot ?

[robert_henry]

the goal of this piece, to my understanding anyway, is to make you're wrist work with supple freedom.  

I agree.

 it works by concentrating on the lateral movement of the wrist only- your wrist must be parallel to the keys at all times.  

I disagree.  Most of the time making a circle with one's wrist  includes the lateral as well as the horizontal, and I would count this as one of those times.  What are your reasons for exluding the horizontal, particularly on the turn arounds at the top?  

Robert Henry

[allchopin]

Or Op. 10 no. 5 in G major. That's a good one.
The best is still op. 10 no. 2 in B-flat minor

That's wild- how long did it take you to figure it out and re-memorize these pieces?  Sounds like a lot of work!  

Mei-Ting:  How much harder do is the Godowsky #1 is than the Chop #1?  

[meiting]

op. 10 no. 1 and 5 didn't take that long, but they are harder. No. 2 isn't much harder, but requires a whole new fingering:)

The Godowsky is not really harder, but different. It's slower, but more massive.

[thracozaag]

"The first etude alone is a veritable obstacle course for the fingers, and the fact that it is written in C major makes it no easier, by Chopin's own theory.  Walter Gieseking admitted that at one time he spent six hours a day practising this one piece"

--Dieter Hildebrandt, Piano Forte: A Social History of the Piano.

[eddie92099]

What about the ex-Royal College of Music professor who decided to turn the piece upside down?
Ed

[gosch]

Are the practice-remarks in the Cortot-edition of the Chopin studies of any special value ?
Are these remarks more on the 'musical' or 'technical' side of things...?

(I don't have these editions and I'm curious..)

[bernhard]

Are the practice-remarks in the Cortot-edition of the Chopin studies of any special value ?
Are these remarks more on the 'musical' or 'technical' side of things...?

(I don't have these editions and I'm curious..)

I think Cortot’s “Work Edtions” are indispensable. Although his remarks are more on the technical side, Cortot has arguably recorded the most musical complete set of the etudes, and for him technique was inseparable from musicality. So whatever he says, is worth listening to.

However, keep in mind the following:

1.      Cortot frequently adds his own ideas in the score, so this is not an Urtext edition. But his ideas are most of the time very good. His fingering is often different from Chopin’s (but this may also be due to the fact that at the time he made his editions, Chopin scholarship had not yet unearthed many original manuscripts – so he might have been unaware of them). My own approach is to use his editions in conjunction with a number of others (Henle, Paderewsky, and the Oxford edition, which is based on Jane Stirling’ manuscripts, are my favorites).

2.      Before each study, Cortot introduces the piece and discusses its main difficulties supplying the student with a number of preparatory exercises that are very clever. (No less than 15 such exercises are provided for op. 10 no. 1). The principle behind these exercises is to isolate difficult passages, reduce them to their elements and work on them. This seems like a good principle to follow, but there are some fierce critics of this kind of approach out there. The most well known is Abby Whiteside. Her reservations are too long to summarise here, but in a sense they are as important as Cortot’s ideas (Abby Whiteside – “Mastering the Chopin etudes and other essays” – Amadeus Press). Although Whiteside and Cortot seem at first sight completely contradictory, I believe that they both highlight different aspects of the general problem of how to work on the etudes (a bit like the elephant and the seven blind man), so get both, and try to integrate them.

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[Hmoll]

What Bernhard said is right - I have to look up what Whiteside said about the Cortot approach.

It's been years since I've looked at the Cortot edition, but examples of preparatory exercised for op10#1 include: playing bottom and top note of each "hand position" - e.g. first measure C - E -C - E, etc. Another is playing the first note and the remaining three as a  chords, also playing the first two notes together and the next two together, finally, the first three notes together and then the top note. There are several additional exercises for just this etude.

I agree with Bernhard, if you keep an open mind there are "take aways" from both the Cortot, and the Whiteside approach.

If you are not familiar with the Whiteside approach, it is worth reading. Be cautioned though that it is difficult  to understand at times, and she does not cover all the etudes. Instead, she maps out an overall strategy for learning them.

[bernhard]

Hmoll is right. Whiteside book is heavy going.

When I first read it I thought she was a bad writer. But then I changed my mind. I think the problem is that the subject is just very difficult to write about. In any case, be prepared to spend several days/weeks on a paragraph experimenting with what she is hinting at. If eventually you get it, then her writing becomes clear and limpid and you develop a real sense of reverence for her. This may also help: Whenever you come accross the word "rhythm" in her writings (she uses it a lot without ever defining what she means by it), replace it with "movement" - I am aware it is not exactly the same, but you will get the right idea after you read a few chapters much quicker than if you use rhythm.

It is a real shame that she is no more available for teaching (she died in the 60s, I think), because I can imagine that her lessons could make a real difference.

By the way, her criticism of Cortot is on page 179.

[bernhard]

Lurking on page 4 of this board there is another huge thread about Op. 10 no. 1:

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=perf;action=display;num=1010958413

[musicalife]

i've just joined this group, so please lemme know if i goof on the protocal.

i noticed that you play the revolutionary etude.  have you any tips for how to master this piece? (i did several searches to see if i could find info on this in the forums but nothing came up)

specifically, since my RH has chronic tendonitis (#3 & 4 fingers), i didn't play for nearly 4 years.  just started playing originals/pop about 2 years ago and my strength is building.  i studied the rev. etude years ago in college, but my RH now is struggling (a bit painful at times) with certain stretches/jumps.  there're two stretches in particular: MS. #27 the 4th beat (chord: Eb, f, a, d from the bottom up) and the 'roll' in MS #55 (a, d, a, d spanning an 11th).

also, how to do the beginning jumps w/ RH from octave Gs to the chords in Measures #3 & 5, etc...?

just wondered if i may get some tips on this here.  hope i didn't overstep my boundaries in asking for this kind of help.   :-/

[Roberto]

I think that the Etude op.10 nr 1 was composed by Franz Liszt and not by Frédéric...and I know more about it!

[erak]

It was written for Liszt, not by Liszt.
It says 'A mon ami F. Liszt' on the score, 'For my friend F. Liszt'

[hodi]

well i thought of studying this etude and i have just read the thread and i'm scared now