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Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind) (Edit: no, wait, do mind!) (Read 6649 times)

Offline lagin

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In bar 30 of this piece, after the octave trill like thing in bar 29, which hand does what on that arpeggio thing that goes up and down for the next half a page?  If stems up equal right hand and stems down equal left hand then am I to assume that the left hand starts it with that low F followed by a few notes in the right hand, and then the left hand does all the rest of it for the remainer of the bar?  If that's the case then poor left hand!

How is it suppost to be?
Thanks

Edit:  I found some videos on youtube, and apparently the right hand carries the load for most of that bar, so it's exactly the opposite of what I thought.  Good thing I checked!
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Offline nicko124

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind)
«Reply #1 on: July 13, 2006, 11:12:46 PM »
I found that section and bars 46-50 the most difficult sections of the piece, so good luck with it.

With the section you are reffering to: I found it tough making sure the left hand gets out of the way as quick as possible after the C Octave for the Right hand to carry on with the arrpegios.

So what I really concentrated on was exaggerating lifting my left hand above to let the right hand through. As soon as the Right hand arpeggios finish you have to pounce on the D Octave with the left hand.

It's a really rewarding section to play. Hope the advice helps because this section caused me a lot of stress when I first practiced it.






Offline lagin

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Re: Un Sospiro fingering question. ( Edit: Never mind)
«Reply #2 on: July 13, 2006, 11:49:01 PM »
Hey thanks Nicko, those are awesome tips.  I'll keep those in mind as I practice.
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Offline lagin

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Okay, not the chromatic bit in the second part of bar 37.  Can someone give me some fingerings?  So far for the right hand I have, starting on the E, 1 2 4 2 3 then where it says Presto I go 5 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 2 3 then on the accented F# I be stuck.  And the left hand I don't have anything so far.  Anyone?  Thanks.
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Offline jlh

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Okay, not the chromatic bit in the second part of bar 37.  Can someone give me some fingerings?  So far for the right hand I have, starting on the E, 1 2 4 2 3 then where it says Presto I go 5 4 3 2 1 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 4 3 2 1 2 3 then on the accented F# I be stuck.  And the left hand I don't have anything so far.  Anyone?  Thanks.


I'm not at my studio so I can't check with my score and count measures, but if you're talking about the cadenza that's prepared by a C# dim up the piano, then I know where you are.  Starting on the E, I believe with the right hand I lead up to the F# by 1 2 5 2 3 and do the same thing you do for the chromatic descension.  After that on the accented F#'s do the same RH fingering all over again.  For the LH leading up to the A (played with the F# in the RH) I do 4 3 2 1.  Then from the A in the LH, the chromatic fingering I use is 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 4 3 2 -- then it begins again.
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Offline lagin

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Hey Jlh, thanks for repling.   (Edit: if you want this whole paragraph in a nut shell, skip to last sentence! ;D)  In the right hand after I descend from the F# chromatically all they way down (just over an octave) to the E, then it has a short jump down to a B# and goes up to C#, D# then F#, where I use 1, 2, 3, and either (4 or 5?), respectively, then I'm lost after that.  I don't know whether to use 4 or 5 on that accented F#.  The notes that follow are E#, E, D#, D, C# and then it jumps back up to B# a 7th higher.  Am I losing you?  I don't know what fingering to use on the F# that will get me comfortably down to the C#.   I could go F# 5, E# 4, E 3, D# 2, D 1, C# 2.  Or should I go F# 4, E# 2, E 1, D# 3, D 2, C# 1?  The first way is ackward because of the squishy  5 4 3 2 1 all in a row, and then I have to go up a 7th starting on the 2 which is doable, but also ackward.  The second way is ackward because I'm ending with 1 on a black key which is really foreign to me to do that (is that commonly done?), and the chromatic sequence is thrown a bit by going 4 to 2 instead of 4 to 3. 

I think what I'm trying to say in all of that is did you ever use your thumb on the C#?  If that is common, I think I'd like to try it. 

Thanks,
Lagin
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Offline nicko124

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In the right hand after I descend from the F# chromatically all they way down (just over an octave) to the E, then it has a short jump down to a B# and goes up to C#, D# then F#, where I use 1, 2, 3, and either (4 or 5?),

I reccomend using 5 when you return to the F# after the C# and D#, the reason being that you are basically repeating the section again so you may as well use the original fingering. Also the fifth finger seems to lie easily after the B#, C# and D# with 1,2,3.


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I could go F# 5, E# 4, E 3, D# 2, D 1, C# 2.  Or should I go F# 4, E# 2, E 1, D# 3, D 2, C# 1?  The first way is ackward because of the squishy  5 4 3 2 1 all in a row, and then I have to go up a 7th starting on the 2 which is doable, but also ackward.

I personally go with the 'F# 5, E# 4, E 3, D# 2, D 1, C# 3, B# 2, B natural 1.

This was the fingering implied by my edition: Augener and I think these are Liszt's fingerings. I found them fairly awkward at first but the easiest thing to do nonetheless.

I certainly reccomend it over using 4 for the F# because I would run out of fingers to cross over. If you use the 5 for the F # than the other notes are already under the hand.

After I get to the D with 1,  I than go 3, 2, 1 to get to B Natural. I than use 4, 3, 2, 1 to get to the G Natural. After this, it is quite essential to use 4, 3, 2 for F#, E #, and E Natural so you have 1, 2 and 3 ready for B#, C# and D#.


Hope that makes some sense.





Offline pianistimo

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my teacher fingered this starting at measure 37 at the C# for the left hand.  (3221)  and then only starts with the rh at the D# (123) and lh (432).  this would be the last few notes before the run on the F# going down.

here's what i have for the complete run in the rh at measure 38:  54321 321 4321 4321235432 132 1432 1432 1235432 132 1432 1432 123543 123543  123543   1235432 12 1324354  da da (last two chords)

lh run: 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 12 1432 12 1432 12 1432 12 123453423 12

it took me a long time to get this all hands together - but when i finally did - it was really fast.  the fastest fingering i think!  Susan

Offline pianistimo

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at measure 29?  the left hand takes the last two notes before the octave trill (12) on E and Bb.  this gives you a very fast 5421245 right before that. 

then - when you reach the trill - start under tempo and work up on the trill using 3232...in the rh and 2323... in the lh.  there's a definate break (my teacher has it marked there - right before the double C.  it gives good effect not to pedal through that totally.   


Offline nicko124

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then - when you reach the trill - start under tempo and work up on the trill using 3232...in the rh and 2323... in the lh.  there's a definate break (my teacher has it marked there - right before the double C.  it gives good effect not to pedal through that totally.   

As my personal preference, I use only the right hand for the Trill to adhere to the 'Con forza' (With Force) instructions. This is also the way Marc Andre Hamelin (and most other proffesionals) play it.

Actually it might be useful to check out his video of 'Un Sospiro', if you haven't already lagin:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLHU2ES51uw&search=Un%20SOspiro





Offline nicko124

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here's what i have for the complete run in the rh at measure 38:  54321 321 4321 4321235432 132 1432 1432 1235432 132 1432 1432 123543 123543  123543   1235432 12 1324354  da da (last two chords)

lh run: 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 1234 123 13 123 13 1432 12 1432 12 1432 12 1432 12 123453423 12


Yep, I do exactly that fingering as well.

Offline justliam

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hey, sorry to hijack to post, but does anybody if this sheet music is available anywhere for free?
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Offline lagin

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Hey, the sheet music can be found at gamingforce.com IF you are a member (otherwise the section is hidden).  I usually get my stuff there then go buy an original copy if I'm going to learn it (otherwise, I feel guilty about the copyright issues). 

Thank you so much everyone!  I feel like a bit of an idot, as today I noticed that the chromatic run does not go back up a 7th but continues down.  I am TERRIBLE at noticing when things switch octaves. 

Thanks pianistimo, I'll write those LH fingerings in right now.  I have a question though.  Back in measure 29 you mentioned some fingerings for the left hand bit right before the trill.  They seem better than what I have, but you only listed the last 7 of them - 5421245, which I'm presuming starts on the Bb.  What do you use on the four notes before that?  All together I had planned on using, 521321212313, but I don't like the noodlely part an the end because I'm not sure it's going to work at speed. 

Also, in general, I'm making my fingerings as legato as possible even if it means doing things like 3 2 1 2 and switching finger 2 over top of the thumb, ect.  I, so far, have not had more than a couple places where I actually have to jump from 5 to 5, because I'll go 5, then jump landing on 1 and then flip my hand over in an arpeggio like style mentioned above.  Is this a correct way of playing it?

In case you are wondering, as I drive you all nuts, I do have a teacher, but it's summer holidays so I only see her once and a while, and I haven't seen her since she emailed me and "okayed" this piece for me. 

P.S. yeah that's a great video at you tube.  I watched it yesterday.
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Offline nicko124

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Back in measure 29 you mentioned some fingerings for the left hand bit right before the trill.  They seem better than what I have, but you only listed the last 7 of them - 5421245, which I'm presuming starts on the Bb.  What do you use on the four notes before that?  All together I had planned on using, 521321212313, but I don't like the noodlely part an the end because I'm not sure it's going to work at speed. 

I don't know what edition you have but mine suggests a rather logical thing for the bit before the trill. I haven't got the sheet music or a piano with me at the moment but try this:-
The right hand eventually lands on a D Flat Chord, the left hand part has an arpeggio run at this time that leads to E Flat and G in between the octave you are holdng on in the RH.
Therefore play those notes with 2 and 3 of the RH. It makes it much easier for your LH and demands very little effort of your right hand.

Hope that Helps.



Offline pianistimo

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as i understand the arpeggios right before the trill at measure 29 - my teacher had marked this to be played (C Bb E G Bb E G E Bb G...) as 5215421245 (12)  and the reason for this was speed.  you can try to turn the thumb at the G natural - but it's not as fast as just using the 5th finger and doing a 'thumb over' thing and grabbing the last two notes with 1 and 2.  that's what he wrote anyway...and i hope my reasoning is correct.

i've done some fudging in beethoven this way (with odd fingering) and it seems to work to keep the speed going. 

as far as nicko's suggestion to play the octave trills with the right hand only -that's grand if you are able to play them well.  personally, i think it's an unneccessary stress because who is going to care if you are using one hand or both.  also, right after that you get right into more fast arpgeggios.  this is a way to save ur hand and relax it.  and, you can put more force into each hand without stressing to get the 'con forza.'

but, i respect and admire mark-andre hamelin.  if he does it and you can do it with one hand- more power to u. sometimes we just do what works. that's all i'm doing.  plus, i have a small hand.  i might be able to do it now - because i've studied piano again and have a looser octave technique, too.  would u use 51, 41, 51, 41...? (but then, what at the Eb and Db?)  if you had a large hand - maybe 41, 31, 41, 31...41, 51, 41?  or the first fingering and then purposely use 41 on the Eb to give more solidity?  so you'd go from C (51) to Eb (41) to Db (51)

on the repeated C octave after that - would it be useful to use 51 twice and simply move the hand in?

Offline lagin

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Ummmmm....  Now I'm wondering about my fingering everywhere then!  Ahhhhhhh!!!!  I need my teacher badly, I think.  Ah, well, onwards and upwards, I will figure this out eventually!  I was just doing 51 on all the octaves of the trill.  Oops, is it suppost to be legato - ish?  Thank you for the fingering pianistimo.  How big is your hand?  I can reach a 10th if I HAVE to (by hanging off the edges of the keys). 

Also, at bar 52, the section similar to the chromatic section I was stuck on earlier (ie. lot's of little, tiny notes in free time), I've got the right hand descending fingering figured out, but when it hits the G natural below middle C and starts to go back up, then what do I do till the end?  They start to throw some chromatic stuff in there that messes up my plans.  Do you guys use finger 5 in there at all in the ascent?

Also, if anyone wants to save me the time, they could give me what they used for the left hand of that part ;D, and it would be much appreciated. 
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Offline nicko124

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Ummmmm.... Now I'm wondering about my fingering everywhere then! Ahhhhhhh!!!!

Don't forget that it is all about what suits you that matters in terms of the fingering. We have provided suggestions but the best thing to do is to experiment yourself (as i did) and figure out what best suits you.

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Also, if anyone wants to save me the time, they could give me what they used for the left hand of that part , and it would be much appreciated.

Off the top of my head: LH going up from B natural: 54321, 4321 4321. At the last section of the scale I use:- from G Flat - - 3, 2, 1,3, 2, 1, 4, 3, 2 1, 3, 2.

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to play the octave trills with the right hand only -that's grand if you are able to play them well.  personally, i think it's an unneccessary stress because who is going to care if you are using one hand or both.  also, right after that you get right into more fast arpgeggios.  this is a way to save ur hand and relax it.  and, you can put more force into each hand without stressing to get the 'con forza.'

I agree, you can save yourself energy and stress by using two hands. It's basically down to preference really. I don't mind just using the Right Hand but thats just me.

 

Offline lagin

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Thanks Nick, those fingerings work really well for me.  Do you remember what you did for the right hand of that section where it ascends?

Also, at the beginning of that section, after the arpeggiated chords, how do you guys do the left hand?  I thought of 212345234123132 ect., but I'm not sure if, when it's at speed 212345234123452 ect., wouldn't work better.  It's more squishy but also more simple.  What did you guys use?  Pianistimo, what did you teacher recommend there?

Thanks, you guys are fabulous!
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Offline pianistimo

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that's the way it's written already in my score (peters edition).  it's been so long since i've played this that i've forgotten all the intricacies.  it took me awhile to learn all this - but really fun to play once learned.  my teacher has a decrescendo mark from the middle of the run to the end (back to pp) and a bit mark to observe the fermata.  you want the quality of the next section to be different - so u need a moment to change gears, probably.  plus, that next section (the un poco piu mosso) was the hardest for me to make sound smooth at the time i was playing it.  i'd ask ur teacher for their recommendation for lh fingering there, but i have (for my hand size):

lh at 'un poco piu mosso':  521, 124, 521, 124,  ...then when it consistently goes up 521, 421, 421, 521, 124

don't forget ur right hand is crossing over on the last page every other time.  in the peters edition it is on the Cb, Ab, F, and D (very bottom 1/2 notes).  guess u probably already figured that one out.  chopin andliszt are so similar - because if u don't get the fingering -u can't really ever play the piece up to speed.

Offline nicko124

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plus, that next section (the un poco piu mosso) was the hardest for me to make sound smooth at the time i was playing it.  i'd ask ur teacher for their recommendation for lh fingering there, but i have (for my hand size):

lh at 'un poco piu mosso':  521, 124, 521, 124,  ...then when it consistently goes up 521, 421, 421, 521, 124

This section was definately more difficult than I expected, I found the RH notes tht repeat tended to slow me down a little bit.

My left hand for the first section is as follows  5,3 -hop 2 123,  531, 125, 521, 125, 521, 124

the ascending bit in the left hand - 5,3, 1, 32,1 and so on.


You probably don't need reminding of this but the key part of this section is the accented original melody notes from page 1. They are marked in the score and played by left and right hand:-

RH - A Flat, LH - B Flat, RH - D Flat, LH - E Flat, RH - F, LH - E Flat, RH - B Flat, LH - D Flat

I think in some ways, this section is one of the most beautiful in the piece. It can be a little bit demanding on the right hand so pace yourself.

best

nicko124

 

Offline nicko124

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how do you guys do the left hand?  I thought of 212345234123132 ect., but I'm not sure if, when it's at speed 212345234123452 ect., wouldn't work better.  It's more squishy but also more simple.  What did you guys use?  Pianistimo, what did you teacher recommend there?


This is how I do the Left Hand Descending on the second cadenza (it's quite a bit different to yours):-

123, 123, 123, 123, 123, 12, 1 etc.


Offline lagin

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Thanks so much everyone.  I finally have a lesson not tomorrow, but the next day, which I am very pleased about!  Hopefully, time permitting, we'll sort most of this out then! 
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Offline yooniefied

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Thanks everyone for the helpful fingerings.  :P


Offline lagin

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In bar 53 onward, does "non legato egualmente" mean something like equally detached?
Does any of this non legato stuff apply to the right hand, or should it be kept as smooth as possible?  I'm wondering because I can play it all legato with exception of the repeated notes, but it would be nice to play the melody notes with my thumb each time instead of hitting them with 2 or 3 on my way back up. 

Also, what's with the 3 2 fingering on the octaves in the melody on page 2.  Why not 51 and 15?  You can't make them connected with 23 and 32, and they're slurred?  Just wondering why they would slur them if they don't want them fingered that way?

Thanks guys.
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Offline nicko124

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In bar 53 onward, does "non legato egualmente" mean something like equally detached?


That seems right as egualmente means equal.


Quote
Does any of this non legato stuff apply to the right hand, or should it be kept as smooth as possible?  I'm wondering because I can play it all legato with exception of the repeated notes, but it would be nice to play the melody notes with my thumb each time instead of hitting them with 2 or 3 on my way back up.

I personally feel that it is a little bit quick to make it staccato. However, every effort has been made to show that it shouldn't be strictly legato (there are no slurs as well as the non legato direction). It is quick though which means that making it very 'non legato' would be difficult without slowing down the tempo.

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Also, what's with the 3 2 fingering on the octaves in the melody on page 2.  Why not 51 and 15?  You can't make them connected with 23 and 32, and they're slurred? 

Have you tried playing these octaves with the LH on 51? It's really painful especially at speed. That is why 32 is used, it's practical. The 15 is fine for the right hand, perfectly comfortable.

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Just wondering why they would slur them if they don't want them fingered that way?

This is a really good question. I mean it seems like a bit of a contradiction slurring two staccato notes. I can't see why it is nessecary other than to show that they should be played in relation to one another, but that is obvious anyway.











Offline lagin

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Hey nicko,

Thanks for taking the time to answer.  How come some left hand notes are marked staccato and some aren't in bar 53?  Does this mean that they are all detached and the staccato ones are very detached?

Haha, actually I was playing those octaves using 51 with the left hand and it was very ackward to say the least!  I should probably switch that now before I get up to speed!
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