"Forbidden" fifths

[debussy symbolism]

Greetings.

Just today during the lesson, my teacher had me introduced to this notion that I think is called the "forbidden" fifths in english. Just why exactly are they forbidden? I know that it is not a proper resolution, but to call it forbidden? Any thoughts?

[lagin]

I think he means parallel fifths if you're talking about Baroque style composition.  Why exactly can't we do them?  I think it has something to do with it sounding too "open" when you play 2 of them side by side.  The same goes for octaves side by side.  In 4 part harmony you have to be careful that none of the 4 voices are doing it.  For example, you can't have C in the the bass and G in the alto if the chord beside it has a say D in the bass and an A in the alto.   You could, however. have a C in the bass and a G in the alto if the chord beside it had a D in the bass and an A in the soprano or tenor because the "parallels" wouldn't be in the same voices then.  By themselves, they are "allowed."  I recently discovered you lose big points for them on exams .  Perhaps that's why they're forbidden!   I think it was just not acceptable "musically" in Bach's day.

If you mean 2 part counterpoint then they are allowed again by themselves, but they don't like too many of them for they prefer moving by 3rds and 6ths, but of course we need some here and there for variety.  In 2 part counterpoint, they frown upon 5ths and octaves side by side, because with only the 2 voices, you get that "open" sound again with those 2 beside each other.  So no C and G beside D and D. 

 Also, if you only have 2 voices they don't seem to like having octaves and 5ths on the strong beats of measures, but I will be asking my teacher about this tomorrow because I lost points for it and my friend didn't! 

Is this what you meant?

[prometheus]

It is because the intervals are very constant, like octaves, The consequence of this is that two notes that are in a fifth interval relation start to fuse together, at least to our perception.

This means that in polyphonic music if one uses consequtive fifths the two voices will fuse together as well and the polyphonic nature of the music will be lost.

Another argument which is quite similar is that because two notes move togehter in a very constant interval there will not be that much harmonic momentum behind the shifting of the chord voicings. This is because there is no real difference in harmony. There is no dissonance that is released or that can be released. This means the harmonic progression will have less 'umpfh' behind it.

So one can say that parallel fifths and octaves sound 'hollow'.

The best way is to listen to this effect yourself. The effect may not be unwanted. But it is important to understand the effect if you want to compose music.

[debussy symbolism]

Yes the parallel fifths. My teacher did warn me that on a music exam it would mean an instant failure(at least so in Russia). I have no problem in seeing why the would be unwanted, but I would be having some trouble following the "forbidden" rule. Nothing is forbidden.

[lagin]

If the examiner says it's forbidden then just pretend it is!   I didn't fail, but I got knocked down 1 mark for each and every one of them which tends to add up among other things .

[jas]

Yes the parallel fifths. My teacher did warn me that on a music exam it would mean an instant failure(at least so in Russia). I have no problem in seeing why the would be unwanted, but I would be having some trouble following the "forbidden" rule. Nothing is forbidden.

An instant fail? That sounds quite harsh. Consecutive 5ths and 8ves can sometimes be quite hard  to spot, especially if the concept is relatively new to you, so you've got to be careful when you're writing the music. I have a vague memory of a story about Beethoven, where he wrote consecutive 5ths and was told by a friend -- I think it was Ferdinand Ries -- that they were forbidden. Beethoven asked who forbid them, and the friend listed a number of names of famous composers/musicians in the past. Beethoven said, well he allowed them, so he could use them if he wanted to.

(But I wouldn't try that one on your teachers. )

Jas

[mig]

IIRC, it doesn't matter in which voices the parallel fifths and octaves are, i.e C in bass and G in alto; next chord, D in bass and A in sporano, would be forbidden too, I think they're called hidden parallel fifth, or something like that. It doesn't really matter which voices are doing them, it is their sound which make them unwanted. About being hard to spot. If you move the voices to the closest note possible in each subsequent chord, and check for the more obvious parallels, that is, when you have duplicated the octave and duplicate it again in the next chord, for example, and do all the proper resolutions, you'll rarely have problems with them. Another thing. We're talking perfect fifths and octaves here. Going from diminished fifth to perfect fifth is perfectly acceptable, at least the way I was taught, although once a musician that studied at moscow cons. freaked out when I told her that, so maybe there are different degrees of forbiddeness to all of this.


Mig 

[stevehopwood]

Greetings.

Just today during the lesson, my teacher had me introduced to this notion that I think is called the "forbidden" fifths in english. Just why exactly are they forbidden? I know that it is not a proper resolution, but to call it forbidden? Any thoughts?

This is all to do with the different timbres of human voices.

Even soprano and alto voices have radically different tone colours, even though they are both (usually) female. Alto voices have a deeper tone colour as well as a lower pitch.

Likewise tenor and bass.

When voices move from one note to a different one, certain combinations of intervals create an aurally unpleasant effect because of the differing voice timbres. These unpleasant effects occur when different voices move in parallel 5ths and\or octaves. No other paralled intervals create this unpleasant effect.

4 part classical harmony is usually taught by reference to Bach Chorales, but the 'rules' learned through this study apply to any grouping of four instruments with different timbres - even a string quartet, where first and second violins rarely have exactly the same tone colour. They do not apply, say, to a piano composition where there are no such problems of dealing with timbre.

Steve 

[Derek]

It is also because Western music is notoriously rhythmically uncreative----thus one of the only ways to express independence of voice is with vertical harmony since rhythmically the vast majority of music in this style works totally in lock-step.   With the advent of more creative rhythms and jazz---these rules have become superfluous since vertical harmonic analyzation has become virtually impossible and independence of voices is expressed more with rhythm now---which is more variable and perhaps even more interesting than harmony anyway.

[debussy symbolism]

An instant fail? That sounds quite harsh. Consecutive 5ths and 8ves can sometimes be quite hard  to spot, especially if the concept is relatively new to you, so you've got to be careful when you're writing the music. I have a vague memory of a story about Beethoven, where he wrote consecutive 5ths and was told by a friend -- I think it was Ferdinand Ries -- that they were forbidden. Beethoven asked who forbid them, and the friend listed a number of names of famous composers/musicians in the past. Beethoven said, well he allowed them, so he could use them if he wanted to.

(But I wouldn't try that one on your teachers. )

Jas

Yes an instant fail according to her words

[lagin]

IIRC, it doesn't matter in which voices the parallel fifths and octaves are, i.e C in bass and G in alto; next chord, D in bass and A in sporano, would be forbidden too, I think they're called hidden parallel fifth, or something like that. It doesn't really matter which voices are doing them, it is their sound which make them unwanted. About being hard to spot. If you move the voices to the closest note possible in each subsequent chord, and check for the more obvious parallels, that is, when you have duplicated the octave and duplicate it again in the next chord, for example, and do all the proper resolutions, you'll rarely have problems with them. Another thing. We're talking perfect fifths and octaves here. Going from diminished fifth to perfect fifth is perfectly acceptable, at least the way I was taught, although once a musician that studied at moscow cons. freaked out when I told her that, so maybe there are different degrees of forbiddeness to all of this.


Mig 

Actually, at least in Canada, we DON"T lose points unless they are in the same voice, and we DO lose points even if it's an augmented or diminished 5th going to a perfect one.  I got nailed for that exact thing on my last exam.

[mig]

Actually, at least in Canada, we DON"T lose points unless they are in the same voice, and we DO lose points even if it's an augmented or diminished 5th going to a perfect one.  I got nailed for that exact thing on my last exam.

In Russia, they lose points if it's an augmented or diminished 5th going to a perfect one, too. Don't know about the different voice stuff.

[liszt-essence]

Music is music.. I don't believe there is any wrong kind of music

Maybe there is music that is painful to listen to, that absolutely trash but still it's just a form of music..

If it sounds nice I would go for it. No matter what "rules" there are

[prometheus]

But you apply 'rules' when you listen to music. Your human brain makes you totally biased against some kinds of music. And on top of that you have culture as well.

Saying that you don't care about any kind of 'rules' is hypocricy. No human is able to perceive organised sound without preferring some types of organistion over others.

[nanabush]

When writing music for four voices, ie. in pretty much all harmony; parallel fifths is a nono, no matter which voice they're in.  If the tenor and soprano are starting at Bb and F respectively, then they go up to C and G that's paralle fifth.  Parallel fourths are allowed though, so perhaps just inversing the notes would solve a problem that you may encounter.  And yes, diminished to perfect is 'perfectly' acceptable, they are not technically parallel.

[desordre]

 Hello there!
 Be careful! There is no "rule" at all: there are principles of voice leading. (Prometheus, in the third post of this thread, explains it).
 These principles, anyway, are different for any given style. For instance, in the organa you find lots of parallel perfect consonances, and in Debussy as well. However, if one looks (or listen for that matter) very carefully to Bach or Mozart, will notice that the masters also break the rules. An example of this could be find in WTC, Volume 1, Fugue 10: after the first reexposition, there is a sequence with octaves in the same rhythmic points, and this very sequence ends with a bar of parallel octaves. In two voices! Mozart, in the other hand, uses so many parallel fifths when voice-leading from an augmented-sixth chord that sometimes this process is called "Mozartean fifths". Someone will say that one of them didn't know counterpoint? Or composition? So, we turn to the focal point of this question: all that stuff about forbidden procedures is a didactic device. In this particular case, as fas as I know, the theorist to coin it was Fux.
 By the way, I'm a teacher of Harmony and this question I had answer a thousand times: why can't I use this or that? To paraphrase Debussy, you can use whatever pleases you ears. However, when you are enrolled on a class of Harmony or Counterpoint, you must be able to control your writing. It's very easy to the teacher saying something like: do whatever you want to. The results? Always a bunch of pointless crap. Make an experience: take a clean sheet of music, write the clefs for a string quartet, and without any preconceived scheme, try to write something. If you reach the end of the first phrase still controlling what you're doing, congratulations! Don't forget to notice the harmonic goal, the relation between the voices, the sound, etc.
 I guess were talking about the begginings of a Harmony class, so all the "rules" (forbidden counterpoint procedures, forbidden dissonances, forbidden anything) are just guidelines to help you improve your knowledge of the matter. Normally, we begin with major tonality, four voices, few or no melodic figuration, a given melody (bass or soprano), etc. Why? Because it's easier to control our writing. If you are limitless (as in the string quartet example), a lot of question will arise and these questions are not about harmonic or counterpoint technique: these questions are about compositional choices, which are really not the case when dealing with a class that didn't master counterpoint or harmony yet.
 There is an analogy: why spending hours of technique practice on the keyboard, if you know that you will find lot of situations where your exercises will not help you? Just because any routine of exercises (and I don't want to discuss here what do you think about this: if someone use Hanon, or parts of pieces, or whatever, it doesn't matter at all) will improve your finger dexterity and your mental control over the same fingers. Any of these exercises are music? Not really. The same question applies to what we're discussing above: any of the counterpoint exercises are music? Again, the answer is: not really. Of course that you have Bach's Chorales and Chopin's Etudes, but...
 To conclude, an advice. When writing four-voiced exercises, try what follows (I take for granted that you have a given melody and that you analyzed it to know what are the harmonic possibilities):
 - write the first chord (open or close);
 - write the bass of the following chord;
 - think of what common tones do you have, and keep it (or them) in the same voice(s);
 - move the remaining voice(s) through the closer path (stepwise, or the lesser possible skip);
 - do the same to the following chord.
 Normally, you will not find problems working this way, especially because you will move one note at a time, what allows you to control with care what you are doing. And don't use melodic figuration (passing tones, etc) until you write down the whole exercise: it's always the last thing to do.
 Hope it helps! Best wishes.

[prometheus]

It is quite of striking that we have all these people reacting claiming that they need to do excersizes in which they are forbidden, some even lost points because of them, but that they dont know why this is.


And then it seems that your excellent gets read over since no one commented or catched on to the things I said. Until, Desordre.


And I keep wondering if they think that parallel fifths in general are disallowed.

The reason they are banned is because the exersize you are doing is trying to achive a particular musical effect. And parallel fifths create an effect contrary to what you are trying to create. This is why they are not allowed.


For example, we have mig claim it doesnt matter if the parallel fifth is being created by the soprano and the bass, or the soprano and alto, etc. Frankly it does. You mean that the error will give you the same amount of score reduction.

It matters a lot. If the parallel fifth is created by soprano and bass it will stand out a lot more. Thus the effect is bigger. And since the effect is unwanted in an excersize with a particular goal it is not allowed.

As does the kind of beat the paralell fifths fall on. This is why it is generally true that having consequative parallel fifths is generally less unwanted than having parallel fifths on two consequative strong beats.

[debussy symbolism]

Thank you for your responces, they have been very informative. I am looking forward to learning more about music theory in general. I am taking a music theory class anyway.

[desordre]

 You're welcome.
 Best wishes, and best study. 

[debussy symbolism]

Thanks.