The Greatest Piano Concerto

[phil13]

After some searching of this forum, I found many topics on the easiest concerto, the shortest concerto, WAY too many on the hardest concerto, and various "Best concerto out of these: x, y, and z" threads.

But one topic, for the most part, eludes me: The Best Of All.

The most carefully thought-out, best-composed concerto, the best combination of good orchestration with amazing piano work. The "Magnum Opus" of classical concerto literature

Be aware, this is obviously objective to a point, as there are certain concerti which we can all agree are not well-written, but it is then subjective at the top of the list, where we might argue why a cetain concerto is the greatest.

Be also aware:

This is not a thread for posting your "Favorite" concerto. This thread is intended for debate over the piano concerto that is closer to perfection than any other concerto.

There are no polls here to restrict the choices, for I could NEVER make a poll suitable for this particular topic. All great concerti, popular or obscure, are fair game, but you must give us an explanation for why you chose what you chose.

Thank you,

Phil

[bella musica]

Unfortunately since everyone is different (including composers) everyone will have different ideas of perfection, so therefore this thread is just as useless as all the other ones you mentioned. 

That said , I think the Prokofiev No. 3 in C Major is a good candidate.   

[xavierm]

Prokofiev 3 is a very good choice. However, to this day I still think his second is the "true" Prokofiev and is extremely well written (as well as being a shoe-in for magnum opus).

That said, the two contestants for me are:

Prokofiev No. 2 in G Minor
or
Beethoven No. 4

[mikey6]

The pinnicle of concerto form are Mozarts and from his, 24 probably stands at the top according to the book i'm reading - but it's also one of my favourites.
But Beethoven 4 or 5, Brahms 1 or 2.
Prokofiev 3 supposedly has a weaker last movement (but I like it), likewise with Bartok 3.
Perhaps divided into era's would make the choice and debate easier.

[phil13]

Perhaps divided into era's would make the choice and debate easier.

I asked myself the same question when devising this topic.

Perhaps you are right, as the requirements for a Concerto are so vastly different in each period. How about:

Baroque

Classical

Romantic/Impressionist

20th Century/Contemporary

Those are nice, broad categories, but they facilitate the decisions a little bit. 

Phil

[kaiwin]

Generally all Mozart Concertos because everything has to be so perfect 

[jre58591]

as much as i want to name an obscure piano concerto, i am succumbing to my wants. i would have to nominate beethoven's piano concerto no 3. even though i love so many obscure piano concertos, i feel that this one has to be named. every time i revisit it, i hear its beauty and perfect structure.

EDIT: i just thought of some obscure concertos that are perfect in almost every way, except that they are obscure. litolff's piano concertos are some of the msot structured and msot beautiful piano concertos ive ever heard. they have the structure of beethoven with the virtuosity of liszt.

[ahinton]

Busoni, Op. 39, in C major.

[stevie]

rach 3, i believe.

[ahinton]

rach 3, i believe.

That certainly comes pretty close...

Best,

Alistair

[ryguillian]

Busoni, Op. 39, in C major.

Why do you think this is the greatest piano concerto? Also, what's your favorite recording of this piece?

—Ryan

[apion]

Both Brahms concerti lead the pack, followed by Beethoven 4 & 5, Prokofiev 2 & 3, and Rach 2 & 3.  Other top-10 concerti include Bartok's 2nd; Schumann A Minor; and Mozart 20 & 24.

[ahinton]

Why do you think this is the greatest piano concerto? Also, what's your favorite recording of this piece?

—Ryan

Mahler is famously credited as having said to Sibelius that the symphony should contain the world. I cannot now recall whether this occurred before or after Busoni composed his concerto, but with that work Busoni seems likewise to have written a symphony that contains the world, bringing into it as he does so many aspects of the piano concerti of the past with which he would have been familiar in practice, yet investing them with his own unmistakable stamp of individuality and at the same time displaying a remarkable prescience of his later music. The rôle of the soloist is perhaps one of greater versatility than in any previous piano concerto, from its grand opening chords that seem almost to build a sonic cathedral on the foundation stone of the opening of the Tchaikovsky B flat minor concerto, through challenging virtuosity, lengthy passags of accompanimental writing, the melding with the male chorus in the finale and so on. The profundity and passion of the work's emotional core, the middle movement (Pezzo Serioso) is wonderfully contrasted with the wit, energies and occasional populisms of the movements immediately either side of it. The vast orchestral introduction that sets the predominantly dignified tone for much of the opening movement sounds to me almost as though Verdi was trying to write a Brahms symphony (rather as Sorabji once described Alkan's modestly-titled Sonatine as being "as though Berlioz was trying to write a Beethoven Sonata"); Hamelin described this passage to me as "the most consistently beautiful music that Busoni ever wrote" (and, whilst I don't quite go that far myself, it's an intriguing remark from one of the more frequent of the work's recent advocates). The whole presents an extraordinary emotional journey, yet its intellectual rigour, structural control, orchestral felicities and sense of purpose and direction are never in doubt. Rather like Brahms's Second Piano Concerto, it is a symphony that is also a concerto, only even more so.

The last time I heard it live was a few months ago in Rome, played by Carlo Grante with the orchestra of the Accademia di Santa Cecilia conducted by Fabio Luisi (a conductor with whom Hamelin has also performed it). Grante is a natural Busonian (not a common thing!) and, in this performance, the chorus was the best I'd ever heard in it, by far.

I've not heard all the recordings of it - and there have been quite a few now. Some have better recorded sound than others, some better orchestral playing than others. One is so distended that it borders on the comical and another well-meaning but almost embarrasingly amateurish (no names mentioned!). I think, on the whole, that, of those I have heard, I'd place Ogdon's at the top of the list, with Hamelin a very definite second. Hamelin benefitted from the service of the excellent English conductor Mark Elder, who also conducted the much earlier performance with Peter Donohoe that was recorded on the same label as Ogdon's. I think that Grante will record it eventually.

Short questions. Long answers! Not too long or unhelpful, I hope...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Both Brahms concerti lead the pack, followed by Beethoven 4 & 5, Prokofiev 2 & 3, and Rach 2 & 3.  Other top-10 concerti include Bartok's 2nd; Schumann A Minor; and Mozart 20 & 24.

For me, the two Brahms works are certainly towards the top, as are the 2nds of Liszt, Tchaikovsky, Bartók and Prokofiev. But then we're already getting away from the top - and, I fear, we'll then be right back to good old subjectivity again!...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

This is a bit OT, but I have just realised that Egon Petri(a Busoni pupil) has recorded a little part of the Busoni concerto. I was wondering how much he has recorded and if the playing is any good?

My candidates are Brahms 1 and Beethoven 3

There are of course many more:
Brahms 2
Bartok 1,2

[thalbergmad]

For me, the Henselt Concerto has everything.

It has morbidly beautiful minor themes, lyrical slow movement and a thrilling virtuoso showpiece of a final movement.

Beats the lot in my book.

Thal

[hodi]

The Brahms Concerti for me.

[counterpoint]

Beethoven 4th

Chopin f minor

Brahms 2nd

Ravel left hand

Prokofieff 3rd

It's hard to say, which one is the greatest of all.

[chopianist123]

Beethoven's fifth piano concerto

[baron_von_heimlich]

Wow, I don't know.  I haven't heard a whole lot of concertos, though, that's one area I need to explore more (I have my symphonies down though!).

But I think the Ravel left hand is a good, original concerto.  Although, does it count, being only for one hand?

The Rach3 is of course excellent too, as is Beethoven's 4th.  I haven't heard Busoni or Brahms (shame on me!) but I will certainly listen as soon as I can.

[xavierm]

Wow, I don't know.  I haven't heard a whole lot of concertos, though, that's one area I need to explore more (I have my symphonies down though!).

But I think the Ravel left hand is a good, original concerto.  Although, does it count, being only for one hand?

The Rach3 is of course excellent too, as is Beethoven's 4th.  I haven't heard Busoni or Brahms (shame on me!) but I will certainly listen as soon as I can.

Of course it does! It's for piano, isn't it?? 

[paulmt]

Sebelius Violin Concerto. Oops Wrong forum 

[counterpoint]

But I think the Ravel left hand is a good, original concerto.  Although, does it count, being only for one hand?

It's only for one hand, but it's for a full piano (88 keys) 

[sauergrandson]

Brahms 1, Rach 2, Beethoven 3, Mozart 12/19/27

[lol_nl]

Rach 2, because it's original, not suffering from repetitions and variations so much and of course because Rachmaninov recovered from a heavy depression thanks to the work.

[apion]

Rach 2, because it's original, not suffering from repetitions and variations so much and of course because Rachmaninov recovered from a heavy depression thanks to the work.

My only problem with Rach 2 is the relatively "weak" finale -- a pale shadow in comparison to Rach 3's finale.

[panic]

I think they're about tied because the E-flat section in the middle of 3's finale is WAY too repetitive and long IMO.

[phil13]

My only problem with Rach 2 is the relatively "weak" finale -- a pale shadow in comparison to Rach 3's finale.

I don't really think of it as 'weak', even in comparison to Rach 3. I love the return of the 2nd theme in C major, as well as the rush to the end.

Phil

[acha114]

My vote goes to Rach 2. Best piano concerto in my opinion.

[jre58591]

i see this thread just to name the most popular piano concertos. kinda pointless to me. thsre havent been very many obscure (even in the least) references, aside from the ones thal and i mentioned.

[presto agitato]

There are two kinds of piano concertos:

1 - The solo instrument (Piano) plays a major role and the orchestra only provide a discreet support . (Early Mozart, Moscheles, Chopin, Alkan, Scriabin, Rach 1)

2 . The solo instrument (Piano) engages in a dialog with the orchestra. (Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Rach 3, Prokofiev)

In my opinion the best of the first group is Chopin´s num 2 and the best of the second group is Beethoven´s num 4 or Brahms num 1.

A lot of people agree that Beethoven´s 4 is the best ever written

[sjskb]

Rach 3!!!

for its well-thought out structure, luscious tunes, hair-standing climaxes (for example, that bombastic section in the 2nd movement, and also the coda of the finale).
finally, for its finger-cracking techniques and hell number of notes to learn. That's what a piano concerto is about right? haha 

[panic]

btw, that was a hell of an explanation, Alistair. I sure hope the Ohlsson isn't one of the bad ones because it's the only one I know

I'm still not really sure what to think of the Busoni as - whether it's a journey or a collection of scenes, or something else. Sometimes I don't see quite an overall direction with how the movements are organized (having the surreal cantico right on the hells of the rip-roaring fourth movement, for example, although the transition from 3rd to 4th is genius; or having all the movements pretty much in major keys), but I think it's one of those pieces that still works in spite of that. It's got flaws but is surely one of my favorites, and can't be compared to any other concerto.

[superstition2]

Bits:

opening: Rach 2, runner-up: Beethoven 5, h.m.: Saint-Saëns 2 and Tchaikovsky 1
cadenza: Prokofiev 2 and Rach 3 "chordal", runners-up: Rach 3 "light" and Rach 4
ending: Scriabin and Grieg

Movements:

first: Prokofiev 2 and Rach 3, runners-up: Scriabin, Rach 4*, Beethoven 5, Rach 2, Brahms 2, h.m.: Tcherepnin 5
slow: Rach 2, runners-up: Scriabin, Tveitt 5, Rach 4*, Beethoven 5, h.m.: Mozart 27, Brahms 1
last: Rach 3, runner-up: Scriabin, h.m.: Rach 4*, Beethoven 5

Overall:

Most beautiful: Scriabin
Most emotional: Rach 2
Most interesting: Rach 4*
Most compelling technically: Rach 3, runner-up: Prokofiev 2
Best "major key": Beethoven 5, Beethoven 4
Best baroque: Bach in d
Best post-Bach pre-Beethoven: Mozart 27, runner-up: Mozart 9
Best post 1950: Tcherepnin 5
Best obscure concerto not yet mentioned: Tveitt 1

*original version or 1927 version, not the final "revision"

note: I don't have much experience with Beethoven's 4th. I've heard it a few times, and I've enjoyed it, but it hasn't grabbed me on a deep level. Performances can make and break pieces, so I hope to get more recordings. I also haven't yet heard Tcherepnin's 4th concerto, which some have said is his best work in that genre.

[baron_von_heimlich]

Oh, let's not forget the Barber piano concerto.  That's one amazing work there, and is highly regarded in the musical world - it's fairly obscure also.

[mephisto]

Best obscure concerto not yet mentioned: Tveitt 1

What!? That is definetly Tveitt`s weakest piano concerto. My vote goes to the 5th, altough the 4th is very original.

[superstition2]

What!? That is definetly Tveitt`s weakest piano concerto. My vote goes to the 5th, altough the 4th is very original.

I think the 4th stinks. 

[superstition2]

Oh, let's not forget the Barber piano concerto.  That's one amazing work there, and is highly regarded in the musical world - it's fairly obscure also.

I don't think it's that great. A lot of pieces that are highly regarded don't work for me all that much, like Khachaturian's concerto.

[jre58591]

tveitt's 4th piano concerto does it for me. it always keeps me on the edge of my seat. regaring the barber concerto, that is one great concerto that broke a lot of ground. if it wasnt a great concerto, it would not have won samuel barber a pulitzer prize in music. also, i wouldnt say its that obscure, but it certainly is heard of.

here is another obscure piano concerto that hasnt been mentioned: bortkiewicz's 1st piano concerto. it should get the vote for the most emotional and obscure piano concerto.

[arensky]

It's hard to compare different eras with each other, it's like comparing apples and oranges. So...

Pre 1820: Bach d minor, Mozart 24, Beethoven 4

1820-1920: Brahms 2, Chopin e minor, Rachmaninov 3, Medtner 1

1920... Bartok 2, Prokofiev 3, Ginastera 1

It's very difficult to find anything structurally wrong with these pieces, whether you like them or not. Medtner's innovations in form and structure are still controversial, so maybe that's just me rooting for him.  I think he will stand the test of time, though.

[superstition2]

1920... Bartok 2, Prokofiev 3, ...

Both concertos are quite similar and represent a concerto vision that doesn't suit me. They seem superficial, shrill, and mostly concerned with rhythm to the detriment of emotional depth (and especially beauty in the case of Bartok's). Of the two, Prokofiev's is superior, because it has at least some degree of humane warmth, something that the surface-level showman, Bartok, appears to lack completely. The ending has the very impressive scales special effect, which I find exciting. But, I dislike the shrillness and giddiness of the piece. Castanets in a concerto? Prokofiev's is a great concerto, Bartok's is bad, in my opinion.

As for Chopin's concerto, I consider it very overrated. The orchestral composition is nothing to write home about, and although that can be said for Rach 3 (particularly the thin opening of the second movement), that piece is covered almost 100% with a dense layer of piano. Brahms' 2nd has one of the most awkward transitions in the genre, and is a lumbering piece that I've only heard take flight in a single recording: Rubinstein, Warsaw, 1960.

[bflatminor24]

In terms of structure, balance and pianistic excellence, my votes are (not in order):

Brahms 2
Rach 2
Rach 3
Beethoven 4
Beethoven 5
Chopin 1
Tchaikovsky 1
Mozart 21, 23, 25
Busoni C major
Scriabin F sharp minor
Schumann A minor

~Max~

[mephisto]

tveitt's 4th piano concerto does it for me. it always keeps me on the edge of my seat. it should get the vote for the most emotional and obscure piano concerto.

Have you heard Austbø`s recording? It is better than Gimse`s on NAXOS. Altough there is nothing bad about Gimse`s rec.

[superstition2]

if it wasnt a great concerto, it would not have won samuel barber a pulitzer prize in music.

Prizes don't mean anything. I could have given a prize to Rachmaninov for his 4th concerto and plenty of people would have said it's not a great piece. There are plenty of people who regard his 2nd and 3rd concertos as populist rubbish, too. I think those people are wrong, but since art is subjective, one critic's viewpoint is not going to satisfy everyone. My opinion of Bartok, for instance, is hardly universal.

[baron_von_heimlich]

What's wrong with the beginning of the 2nd movement from Rach3?  I think that's one of the best spots in the whole work for the orchestra.  It is certainly not thin in texture, look at the piano reduction and you'll see it's actually quite thick for orchestral concerto textures.

[jre58591]

Have you heard Austbø`s recording? It is better than Gimse`s on NAXOS. Altough there is nothing bad about Gimse`s rec.

i would like to hear austbø's sometime. i really like gimse's. is there anyway that you can post that CD, perhaps on dasdc?

[phil13]

I forgot to answer my own question. 

Baroque: Bach No.1 in Dm (this seems to be a pretty universal opinion)

Classical: Beethoven No.4 in G

Romantic: Rach 2, Scriabin

20c: I'm not really qualified to answer this one- haven't listened to many 20c concerti

Phil

Brahms' 2nd has one of the most awkward transitions in the genre

Would you mind telling me where in the score?

[jre58591]

here is a good candidate for a contemporary piano concerto: liebermann's 2nd piano concerto. lowell liebermann's music is some of the msot accesible out there, when it comes to contemporary music. its completely tonal and his music is reminiscent of samuel barber in some ways, but not as "extreme", as some would say.

[alejo_90]

Baroque: Bach No.1 in D minor
Classical: Mozart 23rd, Beethoven 4th & 5th
Romantic: Brahms 1 & 2nd
Late Romantic: Rachmaninoff 2nd & 3rd, Prokofiev 3rd
20th Century: Haven't heard many of those

Best
Alex

[apion]

Classical: Mozart 23rd,

I'm just reallly curious why you choose 23 (which is great) over 20 and 24?  Or 27?  The rest of your selections are superb.

Just curious.

thx