is this the best america can do?

[le_poete_mourant]

I happened to be flipping through the TV tonight and saw this young girl playing on "America's Got Talent."  She played the famous Bach Tocatta in D minor.  But she didn't play the whole thing, she made noticable mistakes, and had no real emotion or feeling to her interpretation (despite her dizzying swaying). 

What must America think about the future of classical music?  It seems to me so unfortunate that classical music is portrayed like this to mainstream Americans at such low quality when, for example, a show with young musicians of finer quality on NPR (From the Top, hosted by pianist Christopher O'Riley) does not get such attention. 

Anybody else think this is wrong? 

[pianistimo]

mainstream society does not value the idea of paying attention to any subject, let alone music.  it is not cool.  maybe for the few students whose parents are miracle workers or have always had very high expectations and worked them into a 'routine' at an early age -- they have high talent.  but, agreed about the necessary work to get to that stage.

i have been surprised at the number of young students on christopher o'reilly's show that have parents that take a different course than normal.  they often home school, travel a lot - or travel to where the best teachers are, give up a lot of their own interests to allow their children to study music at a high level.  they don't think 'mainstream' but more 'outside the box.'  it is definately something a parent can be proud of  - to have a student that excels in music.

for me, i feel sort of bad.  i started out teaching my own children piano lessons but ended up putting other students first because at different point in our lives we needed the money.  and, homework started getting in the way , too.  a parent almost has to sacrifice the idea of working - and really hone in on helping in every way possible if you have a musical genius.  my son seems to have other talents (computer), and my middle daughter likes to sing.  i should have gotten her voice lessons by now - but she's always singing karaoke with the tv 'on demand' station.  maybe this fall.  the four year old needs more attention than she gets, too.  it's really hard to keep up with everything sometimes - but i know parents with more children than i have sometimes have their kids in two or three activities.  as i see it - being older now - i would need to write it all down to remember to go to the lessons (being that i forget simple things like filling the gas tank or eating).  we go to the ymca and swim.  is that enough?  yikes.  i may be a terrible mother.  i do read to my kids and also tell wild bedtime stories to the four year old.

[lisztisforkids]

Americans and much of the world now like there music like fast food: Cheap and fast.

[pianiststrongbad]

A lot of the best music schools are in America

[prometheus]

A TV program is something that is placed inside some commercial blocks to have people watch the commercials, which makes you money becuase the more people watch the more money one can get for the commercial broadcasting space.

If one realises that one knows that one shouldn't be so shocked when one realises that a talent show actually has little people with talent or people with little talent on it. It would be something one could predict.

[xhunterjx]

I saw this last night, and I was furious.

They were talking about how she is a prodigy and how good she was for being 8 years old.

I have heard a 8, 9, and 10 year old asians playing Chopin etudes.

I am fed up with all these so called talent shows.

I was watching another show called, "America's Most Talented Kid."  It was I believe a 12 year and he played Chopin's Impromptu in Ab.  The judges said, "You play fast, your really good."  they give him a 7, and he didn't advance to the next round.

He had a nice interpretation, and for 12, I was very impressed.

It just goes to show you, how no one knows anything about piano or classical music.

[jas]

A lot of the best music schools are in America

But America is a very big, very rich country. What's probably more relevant is how many of its students are Americans. Maybe loads, I don't know...

[gonzalo]

But America is a very big, very rich country. What's probably more relevant is how many of its students are Americans. Maybe loads, I don't know...

Excuse me, but America is no country. It is a CONTINENT

[nicco]

Excuse me, but America is no country. It is a CONTINENT

Actually its 2 continents....but whatever.

I have heard a 8, 9, and 10 year old asians playing Chopin etudes.

I heard asians were taking over american schools..maybe they are trying to find amercians who can perform well (no offense)

[kelly_kelly]

I heard that as well- it was pretty pathetic.

[jas]

Excuse me, but America is no country. It is a CONTINENT

Well, that proves my point even more!

[spitz]

Actually its 2 continents....but whatever.

I heard asians were taking over american schools..maybe they are trying to find amercians who can perform well (no offense)

Actually its 3 continents- North, Central, and South.

[xhunterjx]

stupid argument.

[pianistimo]

well, if some music schools are shopping for international students to give grants and scholarships to - there must be a reason behind the madness.  they want to see someone who knows how to work hard and not cry about the expectations.  some of these students are talented because they don't argue with the prof. either.  they just listen and practice and remember things very well.  plus, the advantage of knowing a second language and using it well.

i'm not sure how the talent searching goes, but one student that was extremely talented here was from siberia!

i think it kind of boils down to the idea that abundance doesn't necessarily produce talent.  sometimes it's coming from a spartan type of living that produces the necessary drive to compete and excel.  not that competing is really the issue - but maybe survival is? 

if our students knew how competitive school is getting!  we are not competing with america only - but internationally.  also, there is a specific thing that advanced schools are looking for in performers, too.  a sort of ability to break from family and make music a sort of career.  not everyone wants or is able to do that - but it makes the music the #1 thing in the person's life.  it's almost as if there is no other thing.  maybe now - i am explaining what under-study means.

[nicco]

Actually its 3 continents- North, Central, and South.

Central america is not a continent

You have:
North America
South America
Europe
Asia
Africa
Oceania\Australia
Antarctica

This was very off topic

[baron_von_heimlich]

Americans and much of the world now like there music like fast food: Cheap and fast.

Ironically, classical music is quite a bit cheaper to purchase than popular music, and the fastest pieces in classical music tend to be of a much faster tempo and note-count than in popular music.

[baron_von_heimlich]

Excuse me, but America is no country. It is a CONTINENT

Surely you realize that people from the United States are officially called Americans.  And Americans often call thier own country 'America' out of tradition. 

But why argue semantics?  Sure, it's technically erroneous to call the United States of America simply "America", but I imagine its just a convience, because it's an awfully long name for a country.  Like how the British call it "The States" (Although, that's slightly more politically correct).

[pianistimo]

alaskans call it the 'lower 48.'  alaska being a country of it's own basically.  just kidding.  seriously, talent is really a matter of hard work.  i don't think the competition is getting any less.  maybe it's also a matter of making a sort of statement and purpose with your music that catches attention.  i mean, obviously you want it to be high quality - but sort of specializing in a certain area gives you a bit of an edge, right?

[m1469]

is this the best america can do?

Oh yes, most definitely  .  It completely and accurately reflects and inculcates the whole of the American society's knowledge of Classical music and their ability to perform it.

[pianiststrongbad]

I live in the US, this is rather offensive.

[phil13]

I live in the US, this is rather offensive.

What? This thread or the fact that it is sadly very true?

Phil

[pianiststrongbad]

I was referring to m1469's post. 

Oh yes, most definitely  .  It completely and accurately reflects and inculcates the whole of the American society's knowledge of Classical music and their ability to perform it.

There have been some amazing American pianists in the past.  Van Cliburn, William Kapell, Byron Janis to name a few.   I consider myself to be a classical pianist, not professional by any means, but according to m1469's post I must be a complete failure as a performer.

[xhunterjx]

This is all ridiculous.

There are bad pianists and bad performances everywhere in the world.

[prometheus]

Isn't it totally obvious that post was sarcastic or am I rotally paranoid 

I mean, it even has a wink.

[baron_von_heimlich]

How can you judge all of the US by one little girl's performance?  I don't think she realized she was going to be an ambassador for the cultural worth of the US... she was probably just excited she got to play on TV, regardless of how good she is.

The US is a body of 250 million people.... there's going to be a lot of talent that comes from that, it's just plain statistics.  Sure, the cultural attitude of the country as a whole isn't as sophisticated as its European and Asian counterparts, but that doesn't stop talent from emerging.

Not that we'll be able to tell anytime soon.  It takes a long time for history to sort out the crap from the gems.

[mike_lang]

I was referring to m1469's post. 
There have been some amazing American pianists in the past.  Van Cliburn, William Kapell, Byron Janis to name a few.   I consider myself to be a classical pianist, not professional by any means, but according to m1469's post I must be a complete failure as a performer.

Since m1469 has been too polite to point it out, I suggest to you the remote possibility that her post was in jest.

ML

[pianiststrongbad]

Michael, I believe this thread was created for the sole purpose of mocking America's appreciation and understanding of classical music.  Afterall isn't that what the title of the thread suggests?

[panic]

Well think about how much in Europe, the music that has come out of a country is a part of the musical upbringing for people there. I've seen evidence of that when you look at like conservatory programs in different countries, teachers from different backgrounds, etc. If you're from the Czech Republic and into music, you probably know Dvorak and Smetana. If you're from Russia, you undoubtedly know Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, the Five, etc. If you're from Norway, you undoubtedly know Grieg and probably Sinding. What does America have to work with? Gershwin, who replaced actual musical substance with lowered sevenths and sixths and endless coups de theatre? Macdowell, who often abandoned good texture for putting octaves everywhere because he wanted to be as cool as Liszt? Unless I'm forgetting someone, the best two classical composers that have come out of this country are Aaron Copland (that's not saying much) and John Williams (Liebermann coming up maybe?). What a crappy legacy to work from.

When some of the greatest music ever written was composed 200 years ago, 100 miles from where you live, it lives on there. When some of the greatest music ever written was composed 200 years ago and a 3000-mile-wide ocean away (not to mention before good transportation there and back), it's a bit of a stretch. And we don't have the amazing musical work ethic of East Asian countries to make up for that. That's why we suck.

That and the fact that America led the world in the jazz movement, and we're ridiculously good at it, and that seems to make up for being awful at classical in a lot of people's minds. Which isn't true.

[prometheus]

That and the fact that America led the world in the jazz movement, and we're ridiculously good at it, and that seems to make up for being awful at classical in a lot of people's minds. Which isn't true.

Why not?

[pianistimo]

dear panic,

samuel barber, not to mention countless really great pianists/composers/teachers (that international students come here to study with). rachmaninov decided to live here.  tells you how strict the system was over there - if he couldn't take it.

i have great respect for hard workers wherever they come from.  i think sometimes it's also a matter of where a genius is born.  and, how parents bring up their child...exposing them to a lot of the arts or not.  it used to be a family affair.  i read about the great times making music in the rachmaninov household.  chopin and his sister.  mozart and his sister.  many composers had a family full of love and openness and invited musicians (whatever the instrument -including vocal) to come over and jam. 

[panic]

barber, my bad.

[Antnee]

{delete}

[piano_ant]

this is all part of the new 'its cool to think america sucks' trend thats infecting the world... oh you hipsters...

-tony-

[mike_lang]

Don't worry - it'll all be over on January 20th, 2009.

Michael

[orlandopiano]

and inculcates the whole of the American society's knowledge of Classical music and their ability to perform it.

What a broad and stupid statement.

[da jake]

The performance was not good. The rhythm was awful.

Hasselhof: You didn't make a single mistake, did you?
Little Girl: "Nope"*

*I made about a dozen*

I feel bad for her. But she has has some talent. She could make a fair pianist eventually. 

What a broad and stupid statement.

Agreed.

[gymnopedist]

What a broad and stupid statement.

She was joking. It was mentioned above.

[quasimodo]

A lot of the best music schools are in America

That's kind of arguable...
Don't get me wrong, US music schools are great, but in the domain of "producing" worldwide recognized performers they definitely don't lead, at least as far as classical is concerned.

[pianistimo]

i think it depends upon what you are looking for.  america is a relatively young country.  if you are looking for all that depth - of course you'll find it in places that the old masters lived.

but, take the creative juices of macdowell or deems taylor that composed a symphony to 'through the looking glass.  you have poetic composers on par with schumann i think.  i happen to love charles ives, too.  the music matches the impressions of the poetry or song.  btw, macdowell was no slouch.  he studied abroad at the paris conservatory and later germany.  his music was strongly influenced by liszt WHO MET THE AMERICAN! and convinced him to devote himself to composition.  (the music of grieg and, to a lesser extent, schumann were also influences).

i think the reason america has many 'happy' composers too - is back in the 1800's we had such a beautiful country.  unpolluted - full of trees and rivers and lakes.  it was inspiring to live in.  john denver was still singing of colorado when he died probably.  alaska is breathtaking.  a lot of artists, poets, and musicians live up there.

ok.  we have mrs. amy beach - child prodigy and mathematical genius who 'puzzled out music theory on her own initiative at an early age.'  her concerto in c# minor was dedicated to theresa carreno (the same teacher of macdowell) who originated in venezuela and taught in the usa.

victor herbert - irish born - but highly successful in american operettas (babes in toyland) - concertos for cello -one of which uses the cello's upper register (maybe a suggestion from dvorak?).  dvorak being the most important composer to have visited the usa to that date.  (1894).  the principal themes of dvorak's 'new world symphony' came from his facination with folk music.  in america, he explored the music of native americans and afro-americans. 

if you didn't have the usa, you'd never have had 'swing'  - blue's notes - a performer (rather than composer-oriented music)

stravinsky, ravel, and milhaud were a few of those classical eurpean composers greatly affected by jazz elements that came to the fore.  of course, gershwin and copeland already mentioned.  and, gunther schuller, john lewis, larry austin, jeorge calandrelli.

for mainstream - we have walter piston (many harmony books from that guy).  he taught at harvard for 40 years.  howard hanson - director of eastman school of music in rochester, ny.  (organ concerto 1926 and piano concerto 1948) virgil thompson, roger sessions (princeton, uni of cal at berkely, and julliard school of music), william schuman (studied with roy harris).

cowell, cage, lukas foss, milton babbitt (philadelphia born), charles wuorinen, ben weber, david martino, elliott carter, george rochberg, john corigliano (important melodic material near the beginning and again near the end of the third movement of corigliano's clarinet concerto is quoted from giovanni gabrieli's sonata pian e forte.  this takes us back to the roots of the concerto in the hands of the late sixteenth-century venetian composers who first exploited the new concertante style).  so these american composers were not unaware of music history or ignorant of styles.

 

[pianistimo]

ps i happen to be a sousa fan - and here in pennsylvania the allentown band regularly astounds people with the band versions of his stuff.  the 'sousa alarm' is the way we wake up here.

something else i was thinking is that if you've never seen a musical - you're really missing out.  perhaps europeans thought they were 'passe' - but in terms of humor and passing the time pleasantly the combination of speaking and singing isn't much different than the old french/german traditions way back when - singspiel? 

[m1469]

Oh yes, most definitely  .  It completely and accurately reflects and inculcates the whole of the American society's knowledge of Classical music and their ability to perform it.

What a broad and stupid statement.

Yes, I agree.  However, if the answer to the topic question were "yes" then my statement would be true.   It's a silly question in my opinion (with only one plausible answer) and I believe that my answer to it, as quoted above, amply demonstrates this.


m1469

[orlandopiano]

She was joking. It was mentioned above.

I guess I missed it. Where did she say she was joking?

[houseofblackleaves]

Anyone who has real and mature talent wouln't exploit themselves on "America's got Talent," a complete commercialized industrial mainstream program, and remember, this is the majority of the american society voting for who wins. 

Some do take an interest.

But that's not the majority.

5% of the people in america don't realize it's not how it "should" be played, nor appreciate it either way.

1% realize the flaws, and may be angry.

The other 94% are having sex.

[rimv2]

Isnt it funny how people see things on television, generalize them, then try to use them as agruements.

Let us, all we AMERICANS, leave our large corporate offices, hop into our limousines, ask our chauffers to take us to our upstate lofts, where we have pretentious parties and complain about how easy we have it. After that we can all eat cheeseburgers, hop on our horses, and rescue some strange damsel in distress, but first we have to kill more than two dozen terrorist single handedly - without taking so much as a scratch to our perfectly chizzled bods or our absurdly hansome faces. To add more we will sit on our butts, do nothing but eat one half a ton of crap and  throw the other half away, never work or exercize and complain that we cant lose weight and whine about how there are no opportunities in this country. But the funnest thing we could do would be to just go bomb other countries with no rhyme or reason. Then kill a sh*t load of civilians and abuse prisoners because, dad gonnit, the television says "This is America" and idiots who watch it think "ah, so those are americans."

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh

Americans work to gorram much to be worried about whether or not their child is a piano prodigy. You are all privilaged to have the free time to play the piano and sit on the internet and discuss how an eight year old virtuoso doesnt stack up to her foreign competitors. (An absurd argument itself)

[quasimodo]

Americans work to gorram much to be worried about whether or not their child is a piano prodigy. You are all privilaged to have the free time to play the piano and sit on the internet and discuss how an eight year old virtuoso doesnt stack up to her foreign competitors. (An absurd argument itself)

If you didn't notice, the large majority of members of this forum (and most forums in the cyberworld, btw) are american  .

[rimv2]

If you didn't notice, the large majority of members of this forum (and most forums in the cyberworld, btw) are american  .

Liar.

There are thousands of forums from All countries. The ones who post are either younger, extremey dedicated, or houswives.

[quasimodo]

Liar.

There are thousands of forums from All countries.

I would bet 90% of them are American, anyhow.

The ones who post are either younger, extremey dedicated, or houswives.

They are still american aren't they?

[rimv2]

I would bet 90% of them are American, anyhow.

They are still american aren't they?

Your bets would be wrong. Your assumption is way off. It's closer to something in the range of 3 - 9 percent.

But that's just an estimate using actually numbers

[rimv2]

Wait, I made an error.

2-4 percent

[Barbosa-piano]

I would like to go on that show... I can imagine myself playing "Flight of the Bumble-Bee".
Adding maybe something else so that Regis Philbin could sing along...