Chopin nocturne 48/1. Very fast octaves !

[xinox]

Hey,
finally I come to fast octaves part in Chopin's 48/1..  (it starts on the bottom of 2nd page  here is the sheet  )

I never before played octaves so fast so I got couple of questions...

The main problem is what fingering to use??

I have big hands ( 12th with RH 13th with LH..  comfortably 10, 11 ) so I guess using only 5th is not good?

So can you write down fingering you use for first 3 bars (both hands please) ??
And any tips for practicing this part are welcome...

[stevehopwood]

I use 5 and 1 on nearly all octaves. Pianists with bigger hands have other alternatives.

In this passage, there are two musical ideas: the double octaves; the chordal 'melody'.

It is not necessary to play this passage in strict time - in fact it sounds worse for doing so. Take time after each chord before starting each run of octaves. Equally, take time after each octave run before playing a chord.

Have fun.

Steve 

[quantum]

These octaves aren't really that fast.  I use 5 on white, 4 on black.  As stevehopwood said, they need some rubato, with some sense of phrasing. 

In terms of form the piece is A - B - B1 - A1.  The octave section is the variation of the chorale (B) section with the chorale melody placed at strategic points between octave runs. 

[xinox]

Thank you both!

I use 5 on white, 4 on black. 

With both hand or only RH?

As stevehopwood said, they need some rubato, with some sense of phrasing. 

Yea, I know this.. I listened to 8 different (famous) pianist playing this nocturne and I know exactly how I want to make it sound..
Rubinstein is most closer to my view of this nocturne but some parts I dont like so I want to play it my way (some day:) )

[musicsdarkangel]

aha!

this piece is much harder then it sounds, not for the pure technique, but getting the voicing, and phrasing, ESPECIALLY on these octaves, to sound good.


definitely use 4 and 5, because for each group of 3, you have to connect the first two.


Practice with the outer voices alone, trying to connect the 4's and 5's of both hands.

There are more complexities to this passage then one thinks.

1.  You have to play them a particular way:  stress on the first of the triplet, connect on the 2nd note, and do a small bounce on the third, so it sounds like Strong weak weakandstacatto, strong-weak-weakandstaccato etc etc etc

2.  You have to do a crescendo and descrescendo, the octaves are supposed to come out of no where, like something building up.  Start incredibly soft, practice SO closely to the keys and don't lift until that third staccato note, and just a bit.


3.  You have to pedal every 3 of them.


These 3 steps are difficult to combine, but when done, it sounds excellent. 


Literally, spend time and write this out.  First write the Tenuto on the first of each 3, the slur from each first note to second, and then the staccato on each 3rd note of the triplet.  THEN, write the crescendo and descrescendo in.  THEN write in the pedalings, and you can even choose to pedal every 3 notes that are the SAME, but that would be hard as hell.

After writing these in, work on the first component first (the motions) without anything else, and keep your hands close, play quitely with barely any movement, but connecting and lifting for the striking of the 3rd note in each triplet.

Then, work on adding the 2nd component, then the 3rd.


Definitely practice without pedal at first (hence the 1st and 2nd components being first)

trust me, it'll help a billion.  My teacher Tatyana Stepanova (won Russian 81' international) totally enlightened me with the explanation, because I hated the way i played them, and didn't know why.

[xinox]

this piece is much harder then it sounds, not for the pure technique, but getting the voicing, and phrasing, ESPECIALLY on these octaves, to sound good.
....
...

Thanks for such a great replay!

I'll practice it the way you write.. It seems it's very good way

I am so impatient to learn this piece cause it sounds so good ( In this time it's my favourite chopin piece )

[quantum]

Yes 4 - black, 5 - white in both hands.

musicdarkangel gave some good tips.

Please don't rush learning this piece, there are many details to work on.  Especially the in the beginning it requires a lot of thinking on how to shape out the melody, because if you don't shape the phrases it sounds dead and monotonous due to the sparse accompaniment. 

[xinox]

Yes 4 - black, 5 - white in both hands.

OK, I tryed like you said and it is "logical" using that fingering..

Please don't rush learning this piece, there are many details to work on.  Especially the in the beginning it requires a lot of thinking on how to shape out the melody, because if you don't shape the phrases it sounds dead and monotonous due to the sparse accompaniment. 

Thanks for warning. Someone said that this is hardest chopin nocturne to interpret.. It seems it's true..

[phil13]

Someone said that this is hardest chopin nocturne to interpret.. It seems it's true..

Sometimes I think it's the hardest one to just play. The doppio movimento is tough.

You can reach a 10th or 11th comfortably? Incredible. In that case, if you find a spot where the 5-on-White, 4-on-Black method fails you, substitute 3 instead.

Phil

[xinox]

Sometimes I think it's the hardest one to just play. The doppio movimento is tough.

You can reach a 10th or 11th comfortably? Incredible. In that case, if you find a spot where the 5-on-White, 4-on-Black method fails you, substitute 3 instead.

Phil

Yea, my friends always calls me a "Burglar" because of my long fingers )..

Thanks for advice, I'll consider using 3 (well, I use 3 in other pieces while playing some "slow" octaves (i.e. moonlight sonata) )...