Pianists with Aspergerīs syndrome.

[sevencircles]

I recently heard the many famous pianists  have a mild form of Autism called Aspergerīs Syndrome.

Both Glenn Gould and Beethoven propably had it and Pogorelich, Lang Lang and Kissin etc. among todays pianostars.

Are you familar?

[stevie]

 

[quasimodo]

I tend to think AS is some kind of pseudo-scientific BS. The symptoms of that so-called syndrome are applicable to most professional artists and an imprtant proportion of outstanding persons in various domains.
When a dude appears to be significantly more skilled than average, then he's not supposed to be "normal". Genius is an illness. Nice simplification.

[counterpoint]

Both Glenn Gould and Beethoven propably had it and Pogorelich, Lang Lang and Kissin etc. among todays pianostars.

Do they have "it" before or after they learned to play piano? 

[da jake]

I don't like when people make these sorts of claims without real proof. 

To me, these sound like subtle attempts at disparaging the artists' accomplishments by suggesting their ability is the by-product of some problem.

[bernhard]

I don't like when people make these sorts of claims without real proof. 

To me, these sound like subtle attempts at disparaging the artists' accomplishments by suggesting their ability is the by-product of some problem.

I agree. Mediocrity relishes the idea that geniuses are actually ill people.

Besides, the whole idea of autism in particular and mental illness in general is far from clear cut (I suggest that people who entertain the idea that Einstein, had Aspergerīs, Glenn Gould was autistic and so on, read Thomas Szazs "The manufacture of mental illness" to start with. Then move on to Michel Foucault ).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[da jake]

Respect. 

[mephisto]

I agree.

But new science shows that the line between being insane and a genuis is very little.

[franz_]

I recently heard the many famous pianists  have a mild form of Autism called Aspergerīs Syndrome.

Both Glenn Gould and Beethoven propably had it and Pogorelich, Lang Lang and Kissin etc. among todays pianostars.

Are you familar?

Kissin absolutely HAS a form of autism.

[bench warmer]

I agree.

But new science shows that the line between being insane and a genuis is very little.

.........a la Robert Schumann ?..............

[mephisto]

.........a la Robert Schumann ?..............

I am no expert on the area but I guess it is something like that. Poor Schumann.

[sevencircles]

Besides, the whole idea of autism in particular and mental illness in general is far from clear cut (I suggest that people who entertain the idea that Einstein, had Aspergerīs, Glenn Gould was autistic and so on, read Thomas Szazs "The manufacture of mental illness" to start with. Then move on to Michel Foucault ).

Good point!

But many of the characteristics that belongs to people with Aspergerīs syndrome definately belongs to some of the wordclass pianists.

Pogorelich and Kissin are propably the best examples I can think of when it comes to classical pianists alive today.

An example of a person that propably doesnīt have Aspergerīs syndrome or Autism would be Hamelin.

He often states that a social life is more important then playing the piano for him.

[BoliverAllmon]

I don't like when people make these sorts of claims without real proof. 

To me, these sound like subtle attempts at disparaging the artists' accomplishments by suggesting their ability is the by-product of some problem.

or comme's attempt to prove to us that he is a genius and gifted.

[pekko]

Maybe Beethoven was so "odd" because of his father and deafness, not because of any mental illness or syndrome.

It actually seems it's becoming normal for everybody to have an illness. Obesity, diabetes, ADHD, allergies (my friend knows one kid who can eat nothing but kangaroo's meat), sexual diseases, head ache, back problems, extra bones, heart diseases. Also narcisstic people, besserwissers what ever. Healthy people are becoming minority! And even they die... 

[BoliverAllmon]

I don't think there is a such thing as normal anymore. Everyone has to have some scientific explanation for why we act the way we do.

[bernhard]

Maybe Beethoven was so "odd" because of his father and deafness, not because of any mental illness or syndrome.

It actually seems it's becoming normal for everybody to have an illness. Obesity, diabetes, ADHD, allergies (my friend knows one kid who can eat nothing but kangaroo's meat), sexual diseases, head ache, back problems, extra bones, heart diseases. Also narcisstic people, besserwissers what ever. Healthy people are becoming minority! And even they die... 

Mental illness, just like Social disease is a metaphor. There are no such thinkgsin a literal sense.

In the case of mental illness, the drug industry and their pushers, the medical establishment saw a golden opportunity to make some money, and so any "divergent behaviour" instead of being regarded for what it is: behaviour we may not agree with, is immediately described as a medical condition (something which it is not) and therefore debased.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[stevie]

or comme's attempt to prove to us that he is a genius and gifted.

 

[sevencircles]

Maybe Beethoven was so "odd" because of his father and deafness, not because of any mental illness or syndrome.

Beethoven was a workoholic and antisocial in some way. Even before he was deaf.

He didnīt care about the social norms at all.

When a violinist said to him that it wasnīt  possible to play what he had written on a violin. Beethoven responded "Why should I care about about a violin? When I come up with something I want in the piece I write it down."

[mike_lang]

Mental illness, just like Social disease is a metaphor. There are no such thinkgsin a literal sense.

In the case of mental illness, the drug industry and their pushers, the medical establishment saw a golden opportunity to make some money, and so any "divergent behaviour" instead of being regarded for what it is: behaviour we may not agree with, is immediately described as a medical condition (something which it is not) and therefore debased.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Wait, wait...

There in fact is such thing as autism, a mental disorder and developmental retardation.  My cousin has it, and it appears a form of mental retardation and social ineptitude.  He has always had a very difficult time dealing with change and it is a developmental problem.  Because of his autism, he will never be able to live alone.

I realize we are trying to protect our dear geniuses of piano, but let's not discount legitimate illnesses or developmental disorders.

Best,
ML

[pekko]

Is autism neurological abnormality or a mental illness?

[bernhard]

Wait, wait...

There in fact is such thing as autism, a mental disorder and developmental retardation.  My cousin has it, and it appears a form of mental retardation and social ineptitude.  He has always had a very difficult time dealing with change and it is a developmental problem.  Because of his autism, he will never be able to live alone.

I realize we are trying to protect our dear geniuses of piano, but let's not discount legitimate illnesses or developmental disorders.

Best,
ML

I refer you to Thomas Szasz and Michel Foucaultīs works.

Best wishes,
Bernhard,

[stevie]

to make thinks clear for those who dont know already, i am a pianist(barely), and i was diagnosed with AS 7 years ago, feel free to ask questions or whatever, im cool with it.

[Kassaa]

to make thinks clear for those who dont know already, i am a pianist(barely), and i was diagnosed with AS 7 years ago, feel free to ask questions or whatever, im cool with it.

Are you retarded?

[groggy]

Aspergerīs is a real enough condition. There is little money to be made by drug companies or even doctors concerning it. It is more about understanding what it means and how to deal with it. As well adults finding out that they have Aspergerīs allows them to better understand their disconnection with other people and problems with relationships.

My son does not have Aspergerīs fully (or maybe he does), but has more of it then most of his school mates. Knowing this has helped us be less frustrated with his toilet training problems and permitted us to understand his social problems better.

Autism is a spectrum, from very little to lots.  Personally, I like people on the more side than the less - as any computer geek should. The computer industry has brought together men and women higher in the autism scale creating more autistics and Aspergers.

It is not surprising to me that some Asperger people might be very good at the piano and be great composers.  I'm sure some where not very good at sports either.

It is not surprising to me that some Asperger people might be very good at the piano and be great composers.  Espesically ones that had problems relating to people and having stable relationships.

[counterpoint]

Everything that's somewhat out of the "norm", for example you eat too much or too little, you talk, sleep, clean, move, fantasize too much (or too little) is looked at as some sort of "disorder" by psychiatrists. Now look, which person you know, that don't have such things... *hmmmm*

If we all are mentally ill, what does the term "mentally ill" mean in consequence? -  Nothing!

We are all in some aspects similar and in other aspects we are different.

Don't talk about illness, talk about similarities and differences.

We need more understanding for each other, not more doctors 

[thalbergmad]

We need more understanding for each other, not more doctors 

Most sensible sentence in this thread IMO.

In modern society, there seems to be a need to put a label on everything. There are too many syndromes.

I rather enjoy making bubbles in the bath by farting. I am calling this Thals Syndrome.

Thal

[martha argerrrrrich]

There is no mind. There are no mental diseases. Mind is an illusion! There is only body and this physical body. What these Geniuses lacked which is termed as diseases is they lacked Sex. We all need outlets. Saving all that energy..Oh boy, its gonna burst in some weird form. Thats probably what this is all about.

[moi_not_toi]

Oh! this reminds me:

What was the name of the disorder that both Satie and Gould had?
Made them want to put on more clothes.

[prometheus]

Most of psychology has little to do with science. Psychology defines the symptoms of a disorder or disease and when you fit the symptom then you have the diagnosis, apart from any cause.

One can not fulfill the standards of science in the field of psychology.

Beethoven having AS; pure speculation. Gould, I have heard he was neither autistic nor AS-er. It is said that he had hypochondriac. I do not know if this was actually diagnosed. If it wasn't then he wasn't. That goes for everyone. So anyone born before Aspergers himself can not have AS because it is merely a human construction made out of symptoms.

What these Geniuses lacked which is termed as diseases is they lacked Sex.

Actually, these geniusses probably found the cause of and cure to hysteria.

[stevie]

Are you retarded?

this is like any great beethoven sonata; open to interpretation.


and about gould : he saw a psychiatrist and unfortunately AS wasnt a known condition before gould died, after he died his doctor thought it fitted him very well, and so it is likely he had it, if it exists.

[quasimodo]

to make thinks clear for those who dont know already, i am a pianist(barely), and i was diagnosed with AS 7 years ago, feel free to ask questions or whatever, im cool with it.

this da pregnant cat spikin'. Da doctah's interpret it az da inability to kominikate wid da normal zane zosaity.

[pies]

Dr. Timothy Maloney (PhD), the director of the Music Division of the National Library of Canada has written about and discussed the possibility that Gould had Asperger's Syndrome, a disorder related to autism. This idea was first tentatively proposed by Gould's biographer, Dr. Peter Ostwald (MD), though Ostwald died before he could develop this theory; there was no diagnosis of Asperger's possible in Gould's lifetime because Gould died before it was first included in the DSM (the main reference book for mental disorders used for diagnosis in the United States). Glenn Gould's eccentricities such as his rocking and humming, his isolation and difficulty with social interaction, and the uncanny focus and technical ability he displayed in music making can, according to Maloney, be related to the symptoms displayed by persons with Asperger's.

Others, such as Dr. Helen Mesaros (MD), a Toronto psychiatrist and author, dismiss this theory as post-mortem diagnosis based on circumstantial evidence by people without medical training. Mesaros wrote a rebuttal to Maloney's paper and suggests that there are ample psychological and emotional explanations for Gould's eccentricities without resorting to neurological ones.


from Wikipedia

[counterpoint]

and about gould : he saw a psychiatrist and unfortunately AS wasnt a known condition before gould died

unfortunately? - fortunately! 

[sevencircles]

I heard that Lang Lang has the diagnosis, Aspergerīs syndrome.

I remember when I was studying Psychology and the teacher mentioned many famous people that has or propably had it.

The names included many famous people  from Craig Nichols (in the Vines) to Leonardo Da Vinci.

Here is an online list by the way

https://www.aspergerresources.com/famous_people_with_aspergers.html

[quasimodo]

All those mofos with superior skills should be locked in a psychiatric institution  .

I read somewhere Al Gore may have AS as well. Fortunately Americans preferred GW Bush  .

[brewtality]

I heard that Lang Lang has the diagnosis, Aspergerīs syndrome.

I remember when I was studying Psychology and the teacher mentioned many famous people that has or propably had it.

The names included many famous people  from Craig Nichols (in the Vines) to Leonardo Da Vinci.

Here is an online list by the way

oh please, that is just like those gay sites that publish their lists of 'gays' (code for anyone of significance).

[stevie]

true, but for those who are diagnosed with it, its nice to know there are people who can have succesful lives with it.

although id definetly say id think lang lang doesnt have it, and that kissin is more likely to have it.

[timothy42b]

I refer you to Thomas Szasz and Michel Foucaultīs works.

Best wishes,
Bernhard,

Utter rot.  Thomas Szasz (pronounced "sots" by the way, I knew somebody in grad school who had met him) does not speak for the field, but for a political blame-the-victim-cut-the-funding movement.  Near as can be determined he never worked with actual mentally ill people, just the philosophically disaffected. 

Go volunteer in a mental hospital and see if you can continue to hold views so violently opposed to reality.  Mental illness is very real.  These people are not mere eccentrics who don't fit with a conventional worldview, they are deeply troubled and msierable beyond belief. 

I worked nearly ten years on the back wards.  No professional I met could read Szazs and give him the slightest credibility. 

I have a relative with Asperger's, and I have worked with autistic children.  Again, very real problems, without good solutions.  It is of course very dangerous to diagnose anyone long distance, and worse when they are long dead like Beethoven.

Well, I guess I don't know if he's long dead, I don't remember his height.  <g>  I'll look it up. 

[sevencircles]

oh please, that is just like those gay sites that publish their lists of 'gays' (code for anyone of significance).

Itīs very possible for you to check out reports of these peopleīs behavior when they lived and compare them to the characterists of Aspergerīs syndrome.

Just do a websearch.

[brewtality]

Itīs very possible for you to check out reports of these peopleīs behavior when they lived and compare them to the characterists of Aspergerīs syndrome.

Just do a websearch.

My (albeit limited) understanding of AS, is that it is difficult to diagnose correctly even when dealing with living patient. Thus, I would imagine it would be nigh impossible for posthumous diagnosis to be accurate.

[timothy42b]

Utter rot.   

That was rude.  I apologize.

I first ran into Szasz's theories as a naive college sophomore back in the early 70's.  (along with M Scott Peck, Leo Buscaglia (hey, I had breakfast with him once) and Herman Hesse).  They sounded good, how dare society discriminate against people just because they might be a little different anyway!

Then I got out in the real world and met actual mentally ill people, and I couldn't believe how wrong he'd got it.  I dismissed him as one of the .5% that are crackpots in any field.  What I didn't do is go back and read any of his own writings.

Until this weekend.  I read "The Myth of Mental Illness" and skimmed "The Myth of Psychotherapy."

Thomas Szasz was a Freudian psychoanalyst, born in 1920, so he must have been out of college in 1942 or so, did his MD and analysis, and actually worked from 1950 to 1954.  He predated ALL of the advances in psychology and most of those in medicine.  He worked only 4 years, from 1950 to 1954, then he wrote his books and never looked back.  He was on staff at a psychoanalytic institute, which means the only patients seen there were very rich, very white, 3/4 Jewish, and their symptoms mild unhappiness.  He never saw anybody actually ill (if he saw patients at all.  There is no mention in his books of him actually doing therapy, but I assume he must have done some.) 

His theory is simpler than I realized.  To paraphrase slightly, "all illness is by definition bodily illness.  Therefore there can be no mental illness."  That's it.  No data, no experiments, no clinical experience, just that bold assertion. 

The rest of his book mostly attacks Freud's conception of conversion hysteria, a type of patient that was no longer being seen even back when Szasz was writing.  But he doesn't talk about research or case studies, he just argues the logic of Freud's writings.  All in all, the books are a completely intellectual and academic approach.  There is no feel for the patient, nor indication he actually met patients.  His one description of schizophrenia (those who impersonate famous personalities) shows a lack of familiarity with serious mental illness. 

So.  I'm sorry I was not tactful, but having done some research I remain convinced he is not a credible authority on real mental illness. 

[counterpoint]

@timothy42b

And what do you think, "mental illness" does come from?

Psychiatrists say, it is hereditary. They don't know a real cause, and they don't know a real therapy.

Take some pills, thats it...

[apion]

I guess I'm not clear what Asperger Syndrome is; so my initial question: how does a person with AS differ from a person having merely an introverted personality combined with a  REALLY focused interest in the piano (or some other speciality)?

[counterpoint]

DSM defines "Asperger Syndrome" as follows:

Code: [Select]

The essential features of Asperger's Disorder are:

   Criterion A. Severe and sustained impairment in social interaction
   Criterion B. The development of restricted, repetitive patterns of
                behaviour, interests, and activities
   Criterion C. The disturbance must cause clinically significant impairment
                in social, occupational, or other important areas of
                functioning.
   Criterion D. In contrast to Autistic Disorder, there are no clinically
                significant delays in language (eg: single words are used
                by age 2 years, communicative phrases are used by age 3
                years).
   Criterion E. There are no clinically significant delays in cognitive
                development or in the development of age-appropriate
                self-help skills, adaptive behaviour (other than in social
                interaction), and curiosity about the environment in
                childhood.
   Criterion F. The diagnosis is not given if the criteria are met
                for any other specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or
                for Schizophrenia.  

https://web.syr.edu/~rjkopp/data/as_diag_list.html

[stevie]

ahha, so it basically means 'normal' except the social impairment and random focussed interests.

and the diagnosis depends upon how severe it is;
                the disturbance must cause clinically significant impairment
                in social, occupational, or other important areas of
                functioning.

haaha, and how can that be noticed?

[apion]

ahha, so it basically means 'normal' except the social impairment and random focussed interests.

and the diagnosis depends upon how severe it is;
                the disturbance must cause clinically significant impairment
                in social, occupational, or other important areas of
                functioning.

haaha, and how can that be noticed?

So what "clinically significant impairment" does Kissin suffer from?

[quasimodo]

So what "clinically significant impairment" does Kissin suffer from?

If any it would be his diction.

[superstition2]

True Asperger's syndrome is a serious condition. The good news for people with it is that people with Asperger's tend to have above average IQ. The bad news is that social interaction is difficult. In my Psych 111 course, we saw video footage of teenagers with Asperger's. They were obsessive and did not communicate normally.

[G.W.K]

Asperger's Syndrome is mentioned in another thread too (stevie's thread). It isn't a mental illness, people thought I had it...turns out I don't...

G.W.K

[opus10no2]

we saw video footage of teenagers with Asperger's. They were obsessive and did not communicate normally.

I've seen footage too, and with this thread being about claiming certain pianists have it, I'd also like to say, it's still difficult to tell because of the vast variety of people which can be covered with this single title.

Half of everyone is more obsessive than average, and half of eveyone, by teh same token, is below average at social ability.