piano as a percussion instrument

[Tash]

i have to come up with a topic for a 4000+ word essay by tuesday. i'm making it something to do with 20th century music (for a long and boring reason) and the first thing that came to mind was something about the piano being used as a percussion instrument- interest in sound and rhythm over melody? hmmm something about john cage and prepared pianos, bartok and khachaturian wrote kind of 'percussive' works didn't they? and then i could go on a tangent on something to do with the composer having complete control over how a work is played (tempo, dynamics etc), eg. carl vine, matthew hindson, whoever else who wrote ridiculously refined notes on how everything is to be played. but that could be kind of overstudied now, i don't want to go researching something that 50 million other musicologists have already done.

but if anyone can give some insight into how i could perhaps refine my thoughts, or seriously any comments, i don't know enough yet to actually fully know what i'm talking about! name composers, tell me i'm talking rubbish etc. thanks!

[dlu]

I really wish I could help you more because I think your topic is really interesting. Maybe you could try reading the writings of John Cage. I would love for you to post your essay when you are done with it because again the topic seems really interesting.

DLu

[Tash]

will do, in like 3 months time when it's done. and hopefully it will be interesting! once i actually start getting some info together...

[maxy]

well, the piano is a percussive instrument...  It's just that most of the time, we work to make it sound as if it was not a percussive instrument.  Pianists are the greatest faker! 

[bernhard]

Prokofiev was the one who started treating the piano as a percussive instrument foremost (and jazz/rock musicians).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[franz_]

I taught Horowitz said once: 'Pianists who use the piano as a percussive instrument are bad pianist, you have to let the piano sing, sing, sing!'

[bernhard]

I taught Horowitz said once: 'Pianists who use the piano as a percussive instrument are bad pianist, you have to let the piano sing, sing, sing!'

Surely it depends on the piece.

[pianobabe_56]

My band teacher maintains that the piano is really a string instrument, and it really miffs me, because I like to fancy myself a percussionist. So I'm only ticked off because it hurts my ego. 

Has there actually been a definite conclusion as to whether or not it's a percussion/string instrument?

Or does it depend on the piece, and how the piano as used at any given moment?

[faulty_damper]

I taught Horowitz said once: 'Pianists who use the piano as a percussive instrument are bad pianist, you have to let the piano sing, sing, sing!'

Is this some sort of self-ironic statement?  He couldn't make the piano sing if...  he just couldn't make the piano sing.  He sounded like a percussionist so he must have been a bad pianist (which I don't agree with; but a bad musician.)

[desordre]

 Dear Tash:
 The main reference is, of course, John Cage.
 Other composers that had used the prepared piano (at least the ones I know): Christian Wolff, Conlon Nancarrow, Pauline Oliveros, Aldo Clementi, Harrison Birtwistle.
 A very very important forerunner: Henry Cowell (who, as far as I know) invented pizzicato inside.
 Two ideas I saw in pieces by local composers (the names I think are useless to you, since they're not famous at all): use of very big pieces of glass, wood and metal over the strings (kind of preparation) and hitting the strings with open hands (very noisy and percussive effect). Also the simultaneous playing by two performers using just mallets (marimba ones, I guess).
 And, last but not least, there is something I've heard about, but don't know if it's true (if it isn't, anyway is a very good idea  ): a composer lifted up (with a machine of course) a piano about 50 f. above the ground. Turned on the mics and... yes, released the instrument. All the resultant noise was recorded and processed and this is the composition.
 Hope it can help you. Best wishes!

[Tash]

wow...smashing a piano...that's so crazed!

ok so attempting to actually define what i mean when saying using the piano percussively- what are the characteristics of the composition that make it sound 'percussive'- it's opposed to it being used kind of melodically right? more rhythmically and sound based, man i don't even know how to describe it properly!

[faustsaccomplice]

Is this some sort of self-ironic statement?  He couldn't make the piano sing if...  he just couldn't make the piano sing.  He sounded like a percussionist so he must have been a bad pianist (which I don't agree with; but a bad musician.)

blasphemy! 

https://www.megaupload.com/?d=I5SKQ9DV

if i should't be posting this recording, let me know...i'm new here.

[allchopin]

Prokofiev was the one who started treating the piano as a percussive instrument foremost (and jazz/rock musicians).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

To say Prokofiev (b.1891) was first would require a little more explanation.
The Russian handful before him is the best example I can think of with utter disregard for the previous 'rules of the piano', Balakirev's Islamey for one, composed 1869.  Much of this percussive style pre-dated Prokofiev in Manuel de Falla's (b.1876) music (despite completely different national influence).

[bernhard]

To say Prokofiev (b.1891) was first would require a little more explanation.
The Russian handful before him is the best example I can think of with utter disregard for the previous 'rules of the piano', Balakirev's Islamey for one, composed 1869.  Much of this percussive style pre-dated Prokofiev in Manuel de Falla's (b.1876) music (despite completely different national influence).

OK.

[houseofblackleaves]

KURTAG. 

[allchopin]

OK.

Hmm, well I actually meant explanation on your part  . Prokofiev definitely wasn't the first to do this.

[rimv2]

Is this some sort of self-ironic statement?  He couldn't make the piano sing if...  he just couldn't make the piano sing.  He sounded like a percussionist so he must have been a bad pianist (which I don't agree with; but a bad musician.)

The genius of Horovitz

[brewtality]

Is this some sort of self-ironic statement?  He couldn't make the piano sing if...  he just couldn't make the piano sing.  He sounded like a percussionist so he must have been a bad pianist (which I don't agree with; but a bad musician.)

That's not true. Listen to his Rach 3 with Barbirolli- he has a gorgeous singing tone.

[zheer]

  The piano is a percussive instrument, however a large number of piano music are not percussive in style, Chopin for instance admired italian singers, he always taught his students to listen to italian singers and try to recreat what the heard on the piano. this is the true art of piano playing amongst classicaly trained pianists.

[Tash]

yes but we're focussing on 20th century music, hence that comment on the 2nd line of my original post...
would there be any substance in me comparing recordings of different pianists to look at the extremes in percussive interpretation, if that makes any sense?

[counterpoint]

Only a little question on the thread title:

What does percussion instrument mean?

This is a group of instruments, where the sound is produced by striking something with a stick or a hammer. Exactly how the sound is produced on the piano.

Where does it come from, that everyone thinks of percussionists as of brutal, unsensitive hammering berserkers? I'm talking about percussionists from the classical orchestra, not of heavy metal concerts 

Percussionists do play on their instruments (which include Marimba, Glockenspiel, Celesta etc.) as musically or unmusically as pianists do. The main problem is: you can't change the sound after the inital strike. Crescendo on slow notes is always virtual on percussion instruments, and so it is on the piano.

[crazy for ivan moravec]

like bernhard said, it really depends on the piece itself.

bartok used the piano like it was percussion. you can hear it in his writing (not all though). perfect example is his sonata (1926).

this is one question i would always love to raise among my students, whether the piano is a stringed or percussion instrument. i would always end up saying that it will depend on the intention of the composer. a lot of 20th century orchestral works use it as a percussion instrument more than a melodic one (the effect it creates when it plays a rhythmic pattern of repeated chords, for example).

on the other hand, romantic composers were probably the most obsessed with making the piano sing because in fact, it truly can sing given the techniques in making it sing. mendelssohn did so much with his Songs without Words, and john field too. but we can't say that mozart didn't either coz he made it sing too, but in a different sense maybe.

so my opinion is that the piano is both an instrument that can sing and and instrument that can also be percussive.

one thought though: if we try to forget about all the pieces composed for the piano, you know, just think of the instrument itself, isn't it a Zither?

ok, now im confused. kidding, hehe.

[bernhard]

Hmm, well I actually meant explanation on your part  . Prokofiev definitely wasn't the first to do this.

Er... I agreed with you.