pedaling in the first mephisto waltz

[faustsaccomplice]

has anybody given much thought to the pedaling in the score of meph no 1? 
for example, liszt writes pedal through the first several measures, which i've never heard anyone do.  but it makes sense if you half-pedal it.  a particuarly perplexing part is at the beginning of the seduction theme, where there are the eighth-notes tied and then stacatto.  in orchestral performances, it is typically played with an abrubt ending to these notes, with the eighth-rest before the next note.  but liszt writes pedal through it all...and most pianists play it as such. 
...any thoughts?

[invictious]

Its the devil tuning his violin, that's up to your interpretation.

I think lang lang might do it in a weird way though, i can almost imagine him whipping out a violin for the beginning bit.

[faustsaccomplice]

i'm aware of what it represents.  i'm talking about the pedal markings.

agreed on lang lang, though

[mike_lang]

I keep the first few measures dry, but add more pedal as the fifths are stacked.  I also try to avoid pedaling the grace note.  I hope this helps to answer your question.

Best,
ML

[faustsaccomplice]

i don't pedal them much either... maybe my question is a bit vague.  i guess what i'm getting at is: why did liszt mark it like that?  i've played it on an 1850s erard, and it still sounds like too much pedal.  there are many passages in the piece where liszt marks pedal through some places where it seems to be too much, or not appropriate, but he knew the piano better than any of us. 
maybe my question is just pointless rhetoric...but i just want to know if anybody has given this some thought, and what they've come up with.

[thalbergmad]

I keep the first few measures dry, but add more pedal as the fifths are stacked.  I also try to avoid pedaling the grace note. 
ML

That is what i do. It sounds more evil that way.

Thal

[JP]

That is what i do. It sounds more evil that way.

Thal

Same here.

But, the acoustics of the room play large role in determining the proper pedaling. So, the above idea seems right, just keep the room's acoustics in mind.

[faustsaccomplice]

thanks so much for your responses. 
why do you think that liszt marked it as he did?  do you think there might be an effect that he was after that we aren't getting?

[JCarey]

thanks so much for your responses. 
why do you think that liszt marked it as he did?  do you think there might be an effect that he was after that we aren't getting?

I've often wondered the same thing. Could it have been related to the pianos of the day?

[practicingnow]

thanks so much for your responses. 
why do you think that liszt marked it as he did?  do you think there might be an effect that he was after that we aren't getting?

What a great question.  And it seems that you have in part answered your own question.
The reason behind Liszt's pedaling was to sustain the strange harmony of the grace note throughout the repeated notes which follow it.

[faustsaccomplice]

What a great question.  And it seems that you have in part answered your own question.
The reason behind Liszt's pedaling was to sustain the strange harmony of the grace note throughout the repeated notes which follow it.

that's what i've been thinking, and i've been experimenting with it.  i certainly think that an 1/8 - 1/4 pedal sounds good here.  maybe that's what he meant. 

have any of you heard the version with the extra two sections included (the "cadenzas" added by liszt after the first edition)? i think that they add an interesting structural element...though they do add an extra 2-3 minutes to the piece.

[kevink]

Don't know the version with cadenzas... would be interested in seeing it though. 

I think when I played it I tended to less pedal in the beginning--I may have ignored that pedal marking.  You're making me think now and I wish I had the score in front of me--good question.  Now I'd probably err to the conservative and try it his way--you know he occasionally had a cool idea or two :-).

On the subject of pedaling, and not to hijack, but does anyone find the pedal markings in the Chopin F minor Fantasy to be... weird?  It depends on the edition you use, of course... but I'm thinking specifically of the lack of pedal in the F Major section of the introduction, and the pedaling over of the 6-5 suspensions in the triplets that immediately follow the introduction and segue to the rest of the piece.  Following both of those directions literally sounds... well, bad, to me. 

Did Chopin and Liszt intend their pedal markings to be taken very literally, or used as general guidelines on where in particular they thought pedal was of greater importance?

[practicingnow]

Don't know the version with cadenzas... would be interested in seeing it though. 

I think when I played it I tended to less pedal in the beginning--I may have ignored that pedal marking.  You're making me think now and I wish I had the score in front of me--good question.  Now I'd probably err to the conservative and try it his way--you know he occasionally had a cool idea or two :-).

On the subject of pedaling, and not to hijack, but does anyone find the pedal markings in the Chopin F minor Fantasy to be... weird?  It depends on the edition you use, of course... but I'm thinking specifically of the lack of pedal in the F Major section of the introduction, and the pedaling over of the 6-5 suspensions in the triplets that immediately follow the introduction and segue to the rest of the piece.  Following both of those directions literally sounds... well, bad, to me. 

Did Chopin and Liszt intend their pedal markings to be taken very literally, or used as general guidelines on where in particular they thought pedal was of greater importance?

Cliburn follows the pedal markings for the Fanatsy - give it a listen...

[alejo_90]

have any of you heard the version with the extra two sections included (the "cadenzas" added by liszt after the first edition)? i think that they add an interesting structural element...though they do add an extra 2-3 minutes to the piece.

I've got a MIDI wich lasts around 12 min (quite long for a midi) . I haven't heard it complete, but I've noticed some changes here and there... Perhaps this is it.

EDIT: I just listened to it and yes, it has two small cadenzas in the middle.

Best
Alex

[alejo_90]

Cliburn follows the pedal markings for the Fanatsy - give it a listen...

Got an mp3 of it?

Best
Alex

[faustsaccomplice]

For all of you interested in the cadenzas, they are published in the Editio Musica Budapest edition. 

I am performing this piece in September and I will include the cadenzas.  They are not particuarely musically interesting, but they add a structural element to the piece that I have grown to miss without them.