scientology

[gep]

Yes, although certain of my experiences have clarified that religion and politics by no means have exclusive rights to the practical application of such malignant misunderstanding!

Indeed. My work in part depends on quite a few other people carrying out some very simple, regulated and repetitive things one hardly needs a brain for to do right. That all I'm going to say....

OK, but there might reasonably be argued to be an uncomfortably large number of points of commonality between the financial activies of bankers and scientologists...

My point exactly, as you of course knew!

All best,
gep

[zheer]

- A Dutch Muslim primary school teaches the children never to greet a non-Muslim with "Salem" ('peace'), since a Muslim can never have peace with an "infidel".

This is why I don't call myself muslim these days, I have thought of entering the scientology church, but if I do this I risk being dis-owned by my network of kurdish friends and family. *thinking*

[thalbergmad]

This is why I don't call myself muslim these days

All we ever hear nowadays are negative stories about Muslims which only represents a pathetically small number.

It would be a shame if you were influenced by this.

Thal

[zheer]

True, but you are in the minority thal.

[ahinton]

This is why I don't call myself muslim these days, I have thought of entering the scientology church, but if I do this I risk being dis-owned by my network of kurdish friends and family. *thinking*

If you'll pardon my saying so, you'd risk far more than this (though this would in itself be quite serious enough); Islam is a faith, whereas Scientology is just a scam.

Best,

Alistair

[gyzzzmo]

If you'll pardon my saying so, you'd risk far more than this (though this would in iteslf be quite serious enough); Islam is a faith, whereas Scientology is just a scam.

Best,

Alistair

2000 years many people concidered Islam and Christianity as 'just a scam' too.
Those 2 'scams' turned out both to be pretty aggresive and dangerous though, since religion(scam-ism) is mainly an excellent tool for mindcontrolling the masses. I dont see that much difference really between Scientology, Christianity, Jews, Islam and other forms of stoneage-explanations of things people dont understand.

Yes i admit, i'm a non-believer.

Best, Gyzzzmo

[thalbergmad]

2000 years many people concidered Islam and Christianity as 'just a scam' too.

I expect some still do.

It is a lot more difficult to scam the modern man. If you told a bronze age goat herder he would have eternal life if he followed Chrisianity, I guess he would. I feel such tactics would not work so easily with modern generations. In addition, the Church does not have the power it once did and can no longer persecute, burn and murder in order to gain followers.

Thal

[ahinton]

I expect some still do.

It is a lot more difficult to scam the modern man. If you told a bronze age goat herder he would have eternal life if he followed Chrisianity, I guess he would. I feel such tactics would not work so easily with modern generations. In addition, the Church does not have the power it once did and can no longer persecute, burn and murder in order to gain followers.

No, indeed - you make some very valid points here - but the "Church" of Scientology does it differently and in ways that are not so far removed from the scam emails that come from certain parts of the world that seek to obtain bank details of and extract funds from unsuspecting people; I am minded to believe that Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or (to cite the oldest of them all) Zarathustrianism would have eschewed the very idea of resorting to such tactics even had they been available at the time.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

I am minded to believe that Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or (to cite the oldest of them all) Zarathustrianism would have eschewed the very idea of resorting to such tactics even had they been available at the time.

Unfortunately, even a very short look at the history of either Christianity or Islam reveils quite a bit of "such tactics" (i.e. burn and murder in order to gain followers) in their histories from the very beginning, altough the tactics of its members/leaders may say little about the principles of those religions. (Note: I do not know enough about either Buddhism or Zarathustrianism to comment on their histories, but since both are "run" by humans, and having some knowledge about the general make-up of humanity, I fear they may have some stained pages in their histories too...).
The tactics of prosecution, burning and murdering have been available to mankind ever since its members were bright enough to see the potential of a well swung stick, i.e. well before the invention of the explanation of thunder and lightning.
I do not have the most brightly coloured view of mankind in general, notwithstanding the high regard I have for a number of its members....

gep

[gyzzzmo]

I expect some still do.

It is a lot more difficult to scam the modern man. If you told a bronze age goat herder he would have eternal life if he followed Chrisianity, I guess he would. I feel such tactics would not work so easily with modern generations. In addition, the Church does not have the power it once did and can no longer persecute, burn and murder in order to gain followers.

Thal

I'd love to agree here with you, but i've been too amazed myself how often people still believe things that (with abit of common sense) are too crazy for words. People like our dear old friend Pianistissimo who believe the bible every single word, people who laugh about evolution with all its evidence, and swear by Genesis with all its lack of evidence and many other examples.
So although there might be alot more information available for our fellow bronze age goat herders, there are still billions of them who chose to neglect all that info and still chose the easy way: religion.
The same happens also with non-religious things, for example in elections (for example Bush' elections, where people chose the easy (but dumb) way of voting for the goat herder who promises lower taxes instead of thinking what that actually means on the long run.

Theres more info indeed, sadly enough most people are just as dumb as they were millenia ago.

[thalbergmad]

Convert to Thalism and have everlasting arpeggios.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Theres more info indeed, sadly enough most people are just as dumb as they were millenia ago.

Can't argue with that

[ahinton]

Convert to Thalism and have everlasting arpeggios.

But you do not say whether or not there is a currently known cure for this condition; "everlasting arpeggios" sounds to some extent as though it might have its origins in the original Thalberg, but that's as maybe. I suspect, nevertheless, that most people on this forum will not want to become paid-up members of the Thaliban, yet they can appreciate Thalberg's art just the same without such subscription. Anyway, arpeggio playing on the piano (Thalberg's instrument - there's no documentary evidence of which i am aware that he ever played the banjo) is a kind of anathema for someone like me who not only has less than no ability at the instrument but who has what some might regard as deformed thumbs, so short they are (and therefore so useless at arpeggio playing)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

there's no documentary evidence of which i am aware that he ever played the banjo

https://www.rallenlott.info/p3st.htm

[ahinton]

https://www.rallenlott.info/p3st.htm

OK, but do you believe that this is actually true? I have to admit that it seems more than a little suspect to me. By the way, we are probably all familiar with the practice of academics in including copious footnotes to demonstrate the research that has gone into their work, but noting one of them here - "For more information on Thalberg and the banjo, see Sarah Meredith, "With a Banjo on Her Knee: Gender, Race, Class, and the American Classical Banjo Tradition, 1880-1915"" - prompts me to observe how very often a colon appears in titles of such works, almost as though mandatory; have you ever noticed this? (I call it the colonic irritation meself, especially when it appears in a title like this one).

That said, I wonder if anyone could have predicted that a thread on Scientology would end up discussing whether or not Siggy Thalberg played the banjo? By the way, the Thalibanjo Society is probably as good a name as any for your other organisation ("other", that is, than the Concerto Preservation Society)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

OK, but do you believe that this is actually true?

It is documented that Thalberg was presented with a banjo sometime during his American tour. If he was in posession of one, it is entirely possible that he played it. To what extent, we cannot be certain.

If Sorabji had been presented with a banjo, would he not have had just a little "twang" out of curiosity??

Thal

[weissenberg2]

I'd love to agree here with you, but i've been too amazed myself how often people still believe things that (with abit of common sense) are too crazy for words. People like our dear old friend Pianistissimo who believe the bible every single word, people who laugh about evolution with all its evidence, and swear by Genesis with all its lack of evidence and many other examples.
So although there might be alot more information available for our fellow bronze age goat herders, there are still billions of them who chose to neglect all that info and still chose the easy way: religion.
The same happens also with non-religious things, for example in elections (for example Bush' elections, where people chose the easy (but dumb) way of voting for the goat herder who promises lower taxes instead of thinking what that actually means on the long run.

Theres more info indeed, sadly enough most people are just as dumb as they were millenia ago.

Have you ever considered maybe you are interpreting the bible word for word? I think a lot of it is not literal.

[ahinton]

It is documented that Thalberg was presented with a banjo sometime during his American tour. If he was in posession of one, it is entirely possible that he played it. To what extent, we cannot be certain.

Indeed.

If Sorabji had been presented with a banjo, would he not have had just a little "twang" out of curiosity??

I really have no idea; I can confirm with almost complete certainty, however, that no such presentation was ever made to him, although he was once presented with an open-reel tape recorder by some people who hoped that he would use it to record his performances of some of his own piano music...

Best,

Alistair

[gyzzzmo]

Have you ever considered maybe you are interpreting the bible word for word? I think a lot of it is not literal.

I must admit never considered that. You just made my religion change from Heathism to Pianistissimoism! I better quickly start rambling idioticies on the 'anything but piano'- forum.

[weissenberg2]

I must admit never considered that. You just made my religion change from Heathism to Pianistissimoism! I better quickly start rambling idioticies on the 'anything but piano'- forum.

Apparently she spammed religious crap all the time, and there is a large void separating theism and "Pianistissimoism". People should not talk about religion on the forum because it will only cause conflict.

By the way, your sarcasm is amusing.

[gyzzzmo]

Apparently she spammed religious crap all the time, and there is a large void separating theism and "Pianistissimoism". People should not talk about religion on the forum because it will only cause conflict.

By the way, your sarcasm is amusing.

I think a forum is an excellent place to discuss religion, i cant really imagine a better place to do this. I'm not concidering myself as one of Thalbergmad's bronze age goat herders, thats why i'm discussing religion instead of following some self-called 'saints'.

[weissenberg2]

I think a forum is an excellent place to discuss religion, i cant really imagine a better place to do this. I'm not concidering myself as one of Thalbergmad's bronze age goat herders, thats why i'm discussing religion instead of following some self-called 'saints'.

Why would you want to discuss religion? What will that achieve? if you don't have any religious believes than why do you like to talk about it? I think you just like to annoy people. You don't have to believe in god (I am agnostic) but stop trying to force your believes on other people.

[communist]

I think a forum is an excellent place to discuss religion, i cant really imagine a better place to do this. I'm not concidering myself as one of Thalbergmad's bronze age goat herders, thats why i'm discussing religion instead of following some self-called 'saints'.

I can't imagine a better way to get f*cking flamed banned.

[gyzzzmo]

Why would you want to discuss religion? What will that achieve? if you don't have any religious believes than why do you like to talk about it? I think you just like to annoy people. You don't have to believe in god (I am agnostic) but stop trying to force your believes on other people.

I dont know why youre blaming me for discussing religion. If youre afraid of any religion-related discussions, you should be at this topic in the first place, since scientology is a religion for many people.
About what i try to achieve....... The only thing i might want to achieve is that people question things. A forum is a place to write what you think and to my opinion i'm pretty safe within the boundries of what is appropriate to say.
And to be honost, its religion (especially christianity and catholisism) that keeps trying to force their highly doubtable  idea's with spam, violence and even wars into us for centuries. I dont think its THAT unfair of me trying to spread some doubts, or at least try letting people think for themselves instead of mindlessly following some figure, whether the bloke is called Jesus, Muhammed or some founder of the Scientology church.

[weissenberg2]

I dont know why youre blaming me for discussing religion. If youre afraid of any religion-related discussions, you should be at this topic in the first place, since scientology is a religion for many people.
About what i try to achieve....... The only thing i might want to achieve is that people question things. A forum is a place to write what you think and to my opinion i'm pretty safe within the boundries of what is appropriate to say.
And to be honost, its religion (especially christianity and catholisism) that keeps trying to force their highly doubtable  idea's with spam, violence and even wars into us for centuries. I dont think its THAT unfair of me trying to spread some doubts, or at least try letting people think for themselves instead of mindlessly following some figure, whether the bloke is called Jesus, Muhammed or some founder of the Scientology church.

It is fine if you doubt it but you don't from previous expieriences the topic of religion has only started conflict so I think if it is best we do not discuss it. The thread is about this "religion" so I don't see the need to bring up any other religion if it is not to prove a point.

[gyzzzmo]

It is fine if you doubt it but you don't from previous expieriences the topic of religion has only started conflict so I think if it is best we do not discuss it. The thread is about this "religion" so I don't see the need to bring up any other religion if it is not to prove a point.

Maybe you just shouldnt be so scared of religious discussions. And if you actually read my previous posts, you should have known there is relevence in my replies since i'm comparing the scientology church with the nature of most big religions and mass psychology.

I assume youre from the USA yourself, where there is alot of intolerance against 'abroad religions' and religious discussions. I myself grew up in a country where there are tons of religions and is much more liberal. Maybe thats the difference.

[weissenberg2]

Maybe you just shouldnt be so scared of religious discussions. And if you actually read my previous posts, you should have known there is relevence in my replies since i'm comparing the scientology church with the nature of most big religions and mass psychology.

I assume youre from the USA yourself, where there is alot of intolerance against 'abroad religions' and religious discussions. I myself grew up in a country where there are tons of religions and is much more liberal. Maybe thats the difference.

Yes I did miss your first post. I am not scared personally to discuss religion I am just worried other people will get offended. Yes I am from the USA.

[gyzzzmo]

Yes I did miss your first post. I am not scared personally to discuss religion I am just worried other people will get offended. Yes I am from the USA.

I blame it to culturale differences then.
Anyway, my sumarize of the scientology-issue is that a big part of the human race isnt as advanced as we all hope we are, and follow/believe other people's ideas without need of proof. Lets just all hope it doesnt lead to violence TOO often. We've seen enough 'holy' crusades to Jerusalem, holy crusades to the twin towers and crusades to Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan or whatever. On the other hand, killing a bunch of people would actually support Al Gore and our Ecology, every reasoning can be legimitized on its own way

'Thinking' is a great gift, whether its from God, Allah or Evolution. Pity most of us dont use it often.

Gyzzzmo

[lostinidlewonder]

People worry about religions forcing their beliefs down their throats and yet they are completely complacent allowing media,news peer groups  etc etc to do the same thing with little/no resistance (and even less thought). Scientology isn't a Church, it has no views on woshipping a God but rather worshiping the human self, as if humans are gods themselves. Somewhat anti religious.

[gyzzzmo]

People worry about religions forcing their beliefs down their throats and yet they are completely complacent allowing media,news peer groups  etc etc to do the same thing with little/no resistance (and even less thought). Scientology isn't a Church, it has no views on woshipping a God but rather worshiping the human self, as if humans are gods themselves. Somewhat anti religious.

Theism isnt a requirement for 'religion', scientology has all the aspects of that word, so i dont know why people would call it a cult instead of religion.

[stucoy]

When I was at university, I got sucked into Dianetics, and did it once a week for about eighteen months, and when I finished university I actually did Scientology full-time for about a month, before jacking it in and never going back to it. To this day, in some drawer somewhere at the Saint Hill headquarters at East Grinstead there is probably a still form with my signature on it signing my soul over to them for the next billion years. So if anyone has any questions about what it was like, or the tactics they use to dupe people, or want to hear any stories about my time as a Scientologist I'd be happy to write about it.

[perfect_pitch]

Religion - A nice belief to help people think that there is a higher power out there watching over them, giving their life a sense of purpose.

Here's what I think - Why do people look to Christianity, Scientology etc? Because it probably helps them believe that there is more to life than what we see, feel, hear and watch in the everyday world around us.

Why do we have it? Because some people cannot accept that the world is a bugger. We pretty much grow up, go through school learning about the world, graduate and enter the work force where we have to slave away to earn money to feed ourselves, pay off a house, take nice vacations and live a little more comfortably in this world. We sit and watch the news every night, seeing the violence and horrors out there in the world that happen day in, day out. We grow old, he have kids and pass on our legacy to our young kids and then eventually cark it when the ol' ticker stops or because of some other reason.

Why is it so important to some people? Because some people cannot accept that what we do in this life is our own choice and that once we die... that's the end of our existence. Some people need religion to believe that there is more to our lives than the waking world in which we exist on right now...

Do I believe in God??? No... and this is coming from someone who attended 20 years of church services every friggin' sunday and 12 years of catholic school.

Reason No. 1: God has ever-lasting forgiveness - OH LA DEE DAH... Isn't that just so nice. So basically no matter what you do - god will forgive you for your sins. RIGHT?!? So all those people on death row who finally found god AFTER committing haneous crimes are just forgiven??? And those suffering the consequences have to live with it? I DON'T THINK SO!!!

Then what the hell is the deal with... well... HELL? I mean if God forgives friggin' everyone - why do we need hell? What we need is a god who draws the line somewhere... Just once I would like a priest to walk up to a death-row in-mate and say to him?

"Oh NOW you're sorry? Now you're repentant about strangling those hookers? Well TOUGH SODDING LUCK! You're going to burn in hell - get used to it. God doesn't like pricks like you"

Reason No. 2: God is everywhere - OH BRILLIANT! Where the f*** was he during World war 1 when people where shooting the sh!t out of each other? Where the bloody hell was he during World war 2 when millions of jews where being slaughtered? Was he taking a bloody toilet break or something??? I cannot accept that a so-called loving god can sit back and watch ourselves annihilate each other. SERIOUSLY!!! If we are one of his so-called prized creations on this planet (if you believe the fundamentalist weirdos - and if you're one of them, I'm sorry) then why is it he sits back ad does nothing to stop it? Is life some sort of 'Sims' game to him???

Whoops - shouldn't have let them invent nuclear bombs and have them nuke the crap out of each other... Guess I'll have to restart???



Do I believe in Religion? NO! I accept that sadly enough, shitty things happen in this world that we (and no one else) cannot change. It sucks... but that is our reality. We're all in charge of most of our own decisions and sadly enough, some decisions are in the hands of others (like a gun weilding maniac).

Some people may look at Scientology as a cult... but who's to say that Christianity or Catholicism isn't as well??? Instead of the alien lord 'Xenu' - we have 'God'. Instead of a 'home planet' - we have 'heaven'. Who's to say the Catholics aren't also the ones being duped???

[antichrist]

2000 years ago philosophist already thought god does not exist with simple logics

despite their (Christianity)unlogical theories, look at what they have done to scientists five hundred years ago

[birba]

Try zen.

[weissenberg2]

Do I believe in God??? No... and this is coming from someone who attended 20 years of church services every friggin' sunday and 12 years of catholic school.

I feel when people are forced to go to religious services it makes them more likely to become an atheist for they have a general negative attitude towards it. (I had to go to church school for a few years)

Reason No. 1: God has ever-lasting forgiveness - OH LA DEE DAH... Isn't that just so nice. So basically no matter what you do - god will forgive you for your sins. RIGHT?!? So all those people on death row who finally found god AFTER committing haneous crimes are just forgiven??? And those suffering the consequences have to live with it? I DON'T THINK SO!!!

Is that even a direct quote? Anyway, he has everlasting forgiveness for most things. Not the obvious.

Reason No. 2: God is everywhere - OH BRILLIANT! Where the f*** was he during World war 1 when people where shooting the sh!t out of each other? Where the bloody hell was he during World war 2 when millions of jews where being slaughtered? Was he taking a bloody toilet break or something??? I cannot accept that a so-called loving god can sit back and watch ourselves annihilate each other. SERIOUSLY!!! If we are one of his so-called prized creations on this planet (if you believe the fundamentalist weirdos - and if you're one of them, I'm sorry) then why is it he sits back ad does nothing to stop it? Is life some sort of 'Sims' game to him???

Things like WW1 and WW2, happened from cause-effect chains that happen because we all have free will. He puts you into this world, good things happen and bad things happen (with different degrees of course).

Some people may look at Scientology as a cult... but who's to say that Christianity or Catholicism isn't as well??? Instead of the alien lord 'Xenu' - we have 'God'. Instead of a 'home planet' - we have 'heaven'. Who's to say the Catholics aren't also the ones being duped???

The difference is Scientology is just plain ridiculous.

[antichrist]

Things like WW1 and WW2, happened from cause-effect chains that happen because we all have free will. He puts you into this world, good things happen and bad things happen (with different degrees of course).

Atheists have always been thinking how to argue this point

[gyzzzmo]

The difference is Scientology is just plain ridiculous.

You know quite well that theyre just as convinced of their beliefs as you are of yours. If you call theirs ridiculous, you call your own religion ridiculous.

[antichrist]

You know quite well that theyre just as convinced of their beliefs as you are of yours. If you call theirs ridiculous, you call your own religion ridiculous.

similarly,religious A pointing religious B's god is fake , religious A's god will be fake too
this is why agnosticists won't care about those gods

[birba]

zen