Question for Martial Artists (or those who work out)

[brewtality]

My instructor wants me to do knuckle push ups on a hard floor a few minutes everyday in preparation for tile breaking. So far, I have resisted as I loathe push-ups at the best of times even when they aren't on my knuckles. I think the aim is to make the bones denser or something. My question is: could this have a negative impact on my piano playing? Is this a potentially damaging activity? Piano is more important to me than tkd.

[quantum]

I did this before.  I don't remember it straining my fingers that much, but I quit tkd before it did any dammange to fingers.  Those kids who don't know how to spar are scary - they can attempt to at attack at all the illegal places such as the back and below the belt.  My instructor always was strict about such dangerous things, but in grading kids from the other instructors always seemed not to know of such things. 

[steve jones]

Im not sure, but I cant imagine this is good for you.

I used to train Muay Thai. Some less experienced teachers would advocate hitting the shins with bottles and sticks to condition them. This is crazy, as its capable of damaging the bone and weakening the shin. Instead we did plenty of kicks on the heavy bags - these are rock hard BUT not as hard as the shin bone and hence far safer.

This isnt directly related to your question, but shows how sometimes ones own common sense is the paramount. If it doesnt suit your body well, then dont do it.

Another perfect example is the use of stretching techniques. Some classic flexibility exercises prescribed by martial arts instructors are extremely dangerous and should be avoided like the plague!

The real thing to look out for is excessive pain. A little pain is par for the course imo, but you know the difference between what is normal and what is hazardous.

SJ

[bernhard]

This is an important question with several consequences for piano technique if one is astute enough to see the links.

In the 1950s when hard martial arts like Karate started to get know in the West, breaking hard stuff (wood slabs, concrete blocks, bricks, etc) with one´s bare hands (and feet and head and elbows and knees), made a big impact on audiences.

The martial arts masters performing such feats were usually diminutive men (in rare cases women), and they were doing it in the full knowledge that breaking was a circus act, of no real importance to martial arts (when was the last time you have been attacked by a brick?). They were doing it as a quick way to call attention to it, and so get customers.

Seeing such small people break concrete blocks with their bare hands was so amazing (for an audience who had never seen anything like that) that immediately two diverse bodies of opinion formed: one that was so impressed by it and wishing to perform the same, that they immediately enrolled in the neighborhood dojo; and another who claimed it was totally impossible, and some trickery was being done (weakened bricks, sawed through slabs of wood and so on).

Nowadays no one believes it is trickery anymore – enough legitimate breaking has been carried on for us to know it is legitimate – and funny enough, because of that, you can easily get away with trickery when doing this sort of feat (as I saw on one exhibition of the “Shaolin monks” where they mixed up legitimate demonstrations with fake ones).

In any case, in those early days, breaking became the curse of the martial arts, because that was all the student wanted to accomplish. (A bit like the piano student who only wants to play Rach 3 or the Fantasy Impromptu, and completely misses the point of the music).

It took ate least three generations to overcome the “breaking” effect – something that was originally shown as a stunt act, not as the core of any martial art. Nowadays, almost no karate school does breaking anymore – most of it is done by Taekwondo people. And they do it for pretty much the same reasons: as an advertisement stunt for their school.

Now for breaking itself.

I once saw on TV one of these American programs (I think it may have been Ripley´s “Believe it or not”) where they had rounded a number of “breakers” who would do a marathon of breaking: they were breaking everything with all the parts of their bodies.

These guys were all Americans, all very big, many obese, full of Tatoos and weird hair styles, and they looked like truck drivers. They had huge calluses on their knuckles, on their foreheads and so on, and many scars. They were proudly saying how many times they had broken their hands or injured themselves in several different parts of the body, both as a result of training to break things, as well as from the act of breaking things itself. They were convinced that “breaking”  could only be accomplished if you had “hands of steel” with denser than average bones and thick callosities to pad them. They were all fervent proponents of “exercises” to toughen their hands – exercises meant to be painful (no pain, no gain, right) for they firmly believed that the strengthening process was a consequence of injuring oneself and healing oneself on a consistent basis. Some of the older guys interviewed were great breakers in their youth, but now they were just there as former legends, since they now have severe arthritis. But they did not show any regret: they were happy they were once legends (a bit like Olympic athletes that once they retire are too injured from their training, but still they have that gold medal to show for it).

An interesting contrast to the above was a Japanese martial artist I once met. As usual he was very thin and diminutive. He was a master breaker (he showed me some videos of him), and yet his hands were “baby hands”. No calluses, no hard skin, exactly the opposite. You would never have guessed he could do what he did (his main job was as a physicist – martial arts was something he did on the side and very quietly – which has always been a tradition in the oriental martial arts. It is only since martial arts came to the West that the “professional martial artist” has come to the fore).

We talked a lot about all things martial arts related, and he told me that breaking had nothing to do with “conditioning and strengthening” the hands (does that ring a bell, piano players out there: virtuosity has little to do with “conditioning and strengthening the fingers”). The whole secret (if there was indeed any secret), he told me, was in the perfect alignment of the several bones and joints of the arm/forearm/hand, and in deriving huge amounts of power from the hip. He went on to say that generating the power form the hip was now very well taught, and most martial arts students could do it, but that alignment was very badly taught and most students had very poor alignment. He blamed on the practice of punching and kicking the air. In his opinion (which I share) punching bags were a most. One should always punch and kick a real solid target, never the air. This was not to develop hand strength or conditioning, but to encourage proper alignment, because if your joints were misaligned you would immediately see it by the lack of power generated by your punches – no matter how strong – and by the pain in your joints as you hit the target.

He also told me that during his 40 years in the martial arts he had broken his hand twice when trying to break things, and in both instances he knew right away that he was misaligned. He considered these two occasions as irreplaceable learning experiences, since after the second time he never made the same mistake again.

We discussed the TV program, and we both agreed that results could be achieved by the trucker´s methodology, but the cost was high, and the results would not last longer, because ultimately the whole enterprise was misguided. While it was clear that alignment and targeting alignment as the main aim of training was the correct approach – one that would avoid injuries and allow one to keep breaking (if that was what one wanted to do) well into old life.

So, this is a very important principle for the learning of anything. If you (or your teacher) have a misguided notion of the activity you are engaging in, the training will also be misguided and off the mark.

Now for your question.

Press ups on the knuckles are actually an excellent idea. Not because they will make your bones dense (or any such nonsense) but because you will not be able to do them comfortably unless your forearm and hand bones are aligned.

You must make sure that  you are doing them on the first two knuckles of the hand (2nd and 3rd finger knuckles) though. If you hit hard any target with 4th and 5th finger knuckles you will break your hand. By doign the pressups on the 2nd and 3rd finger knuckles you get your hand used for the optimum alignment for punching - the one that will break your adversary´s nose, not your hand (incidentally, boxers often break their hands in bareknuckle fihgting because they do not have this sort of training: the straps and gloves let them get away with punches done with the 4th and 5th knuckles - you see, they use gloves to protect their hands, not their opponents face ).

Now, it is not a good idea to do these pressups straight on the floor (remember, your aim is alignment, not arm strength or bone density), so  start by doing them on the wall Have your feet about 60 cm from the wall, place your fists on the wall (they should be about your ribcage height and your arms should be close to your body so that when you bend your arms and go towards the wall your torso lightly brush your arms), on the 2nd and 3rd knuckles, and start doing press ups. When you manage to build up 20 press ups on the wall (this may take a couple of weeks or even a month if you are out of shape in this area – if so do 5 the first week, 10 the second week and so on), then try doing 5 of them on the floor. Once you can do 40 on the wall, you should be able to do 10 on the floor and so on with a 4:1 ratio. (Pianists, note. You can do the seam exercise on your fingertips to ensure proper alignment of finger joints – but only on the wall, not on the floor. And make sure you have a nice arch on each finger – do not let any joint collapse. The hand should look like a dome and feel structurally sound and strong: the arch is the strongest form in nature and architecture – this is not “muscle” strength, but “form and structure” strength). Once you can do 20 on the floor you may discontinue the wall ones. Aim at 50 - 100. That is more than enough.

On the other hand, repeated hitting some hard surface (e.g., makiwara or wooden dummy) in order to “condition” hands is a very bad idea, and you will end up with arthritis later in life (In certain hard styles, both Chinese and Japanese you are requested to throw your hands on sand, then on rice, then on beans and then on gravel in order to condition them. This is also a very bad idea).

Once more, remember: your aim is alignment, not conditioning. If you keep this in mind, even an apparently “wrong” exercise will become correct. And conversely even a good exercise may become prejudicial.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

P.S. In the 1970s (I believe) Scientific American printed a paper on the physics of breaking – the author was both a physicist and karate black belt – unfortunately I do not have the reference anymore, but it was titled “The Physics of Karate”)

[steve jones]

That actually makes a lot of sense Bernhard.

Its amazing how many of these myths become gospel in peoples minds. So many people ask me if Muay Thai fighters compete today with broken glass on the fits! Or do they have to kick bamboo trees to condition the legs.

I guess this is part of who mythology of martial arts. Like you say, in the beginning they used to magical breaking techniques to drum up hype. But at the same time, I dont doubt that alot of false info was dished out about how to actually perform the techniques.

Inevitably, the truth in these matters always comes down to a proper technique. Indeed, in fighting sports a level of fitness and condition is imperitive, but its never of greater importance than the application of correct technique. Same with any sport or physical activity.

Still, as a pianist I would probably not want to risk block breaking! I knackered my wrist before and its never been the same since. I cant imagine the implications of a bad injury in breaking for the pianist.

SJ

[bernhard]

Still, as a pianist I would probably not want to risk block breaking! I knackered my wrist before and its never been the same since. I cant imagine the implications of a bad injury in breaking for the pianist.

Indeed, and I am not suggesting that he gets into it - not only it is totally unnecessary (as I said, what was the lat time a brick attacked you), as very often you learn how to do it properly by breaking your hand a couple of times! (Pain is the best teacher, but no one wants to go to her class ).

At the same time, martial arts does involve punching and kicking, and one better learn hos to do it properly ()for which the fist pressup is a good exercise - puching a sand bag is another), otehrwise one may get injured in class (saprring, for instance) even if one is not breaking anything.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[knabe31]

As a former martial arts school owner, I do not recommend breaking with the hand. I have seen too many injuries over the years and it is not worth taking a chance on breaking something, (other than the board). You could potentially ruin your hands and jepordize your piano playing. Pushups on knuckles is ok, but not on a bare floor. On a mat or something. Lets use our heads here (not literally). The martial arts are a great part of mine and many others lives. But, there is no reason to purposely jepordize your body. Just my thoughts.   

[prometheus]

If we talk about a real fight I think you just need both. If you are going to enter a Mua Thai ring you will need to have insensitive shins. But of course you also need good kicking and punching technique.

But if you are a karate sensei, 空手道 先生, you don't need to actually fight. You defend the tradition of the perfect kick, the perfect punch, etc. It will be about aesthetic movement, tradition and the ideology behind the tradition.

As for breaking excersizsed, I do not really see the point behind it.

[steve jones]

If we talk about a real fight I think you just need both. If you are going to enter a Mua Thai ring you will need to have insensitive shins. But of course you also need good kicking and punching technique.

But if you are a karate sensei, 空手道 先生, you don't need to actually fight. You defend the tradition of the perfect kick, the perfect punch, etc. It will be about aesthetic movement, tradition and the ideology behind the tradition.

As for breaking excersizsed, I do not really see the point behind it.

You are quite right, good conditioning (physically and mentally) is essential to compete in Muay Thai, even at the novice level.

Fortunately, having good technique, footwork and a fighting mind enables you to get away with much less. You'd be surprised - Iv met top Thai fighters who have had success in the two major Bangkok stadiums, and they dont look at all in condition. These guys had skinny legs and little pot bellies, lol. But they were so good with the teep (like the defensive front kick) that you literally couldnt get near them. Their skill was just so far above the average that you couldnt hit them at all, never mind hurt them!

Ofcourse, most professional fighters in Thailand are in amazing condition. But again, the ripped up body can be deceptive aswell. Iv seen really well muscled guys knackered after few rounds of play sparing. Yet these guys from Thailand that I mention, the ones who dont look at all in condition... they can play spare ALL DAY, no problem. They practice clinch work for several hours a day, and that has to be the most tiring part of the sport.

Funny you should mention punching and kicking technique in this thread too, as this fits in very well with Bernhard's point about breaking. In Muay Thai, both the round kick and punching is done totally relaxed, using proper technique to deliver the power. My couch always used to say that if you TRY to knock someone out with a punch, you're unlikely to be successful. Its the totally relaxed punch with the full weight behind that sends people to the canvas.

But as with breaking, there are nutters in Muay Thai. You have these guys who care nothing for the art, but rather want to rip each others heads off asap. These are pitiful to watch as they really make a hash of the art. Seeing true Muay Thai fighters compete is like watching fine pianist perform - its a thing of beauty!

SJ

[prometheus]

Well Muay Thai is not really an art form, right? Though it is a tradition it is much more like sumou than like karate or kung fu.

I didn't really mean that they had to be in top condition, you see a lot of overweight fighters that are overweight to get into a higher weight class, but I was talking about toughening up the body. I am not sure but I think one needs to destroy the nerves in the shin to be able to make hard kicks painlessly? Right? Same with callous on the fingertips. It may not be the best way but it does work. If you are in a real fight you aren't always able to get off a perfect punch and you aren't able to avoid receiving punishment.

[steve jones]

"Well Muay Thai is not really an art form, right? Though it is a tradition it is much more like sumou than like karate or kung fu."

Its actually thought that Muay Thai is derived from Kung Fu. And while today Muay Thai is practiced in the form of a sport, it is indeed a traditional martial art with a highly religious component. Traditional Muay Thai contains many of the kata like drills that you'd associate with Kung Fu or Karate. And even in the modern style, fighters still perform a Ram Muay dance wearing articles of religious significance.


"I didn't really mean that they had to be in top condition, you see a lot of overweight fighters that are overweight to get into a higher weight class, but I was talking about toughening up the body. I am not sure but I think one needs to destroy the nerves in the shin to be able to make hard kicks painlessly?"

When I speak of Muay Thai, be clear that I am talking of the true Muay Thai, as practiced in Thailand. There are places to learn this in the UK, Europe and the US, but alot of what is taught in these regions is bs. In Thailand, you will never see professional fighters who are overweight. My reference was to more to fighters who have less conditioned bodies (ie, dont have the heavily ripped stomach and developed legs).

About the shins, you are right to an extent. Play sparing, pad work and bag work all help condition the shins. But even top fighters get injured - broken toes and feet are common. So again, alot of it is down to the way they fight. Often they kick close in so that the shin makes contact completely rather than foot aswell. Also, they will never intentionally kick when the opponent is blocking as this would risk injury (and hurt!).

Top Thai fighters have been training for along time, so its likely they have a high level of conditioning. But I doubt that anyone can kick a solid block and not feel any pain.


" If you are in a real fight you aren't always able to get off a perfect punch and you aren't able to avoid receiving punishment."

Absolutely. In Muay Thai fights a certain degree of punishment is a given. Leg kicks, knees etc all hurt like hell. But through training this can become tolerable. Enough so for two fighters to have a technical match.

But any physicial or technical weakness with be exposed, so it pays to be well conditioned! Usually this is in the legs. If you cant block the leg kicks (and take a few when you have to) then they will chop you down until you cant stand up.

Strangely though, in Bangkok they hardly ever go all out on the legs, due to mutual respect - injuries affect the fighters ability to earn money. Its Western fighters who tend to be rough on the legs. Iv only scene a few Bangkok fights where they've gone for the legs hard, and I have a feeling that might have been a grudge match.

Lol, anyway I will leave it at that. You see what happens when you get me talking about this stuff... I never shut up! 

SJ

[brewtality]

Thanks for the responses guys!

I will follow Bernhard's wall exercise advise, and perhaps later move on to push ups on a carpeted surface (or mat). I've done hand breaks in the past and haven't had problems with them, but that was with regular pine boards not tiles. In any case, it was only an option for me to break with my hands, not required. So I think I could avoid the risk of injury that way. It's not a risk I'd be happy to take.

[pianistimo]

this topic always catches my eye and i liked reading all the responses.  i liked the idea of the wall pushups. 

for me, being female, it has more to do with taking in the complete surroundings and melding.  i consider the first line of personal defense - getting out of the situation without any sort of fight at all.  this is where speed comes in.

interesting about alignment.  it also helps with speed.  and minimal movements.  i used to make wide movements with my feet cycling - now i can sort of up pedal and also have been studying the effects of wind (different directions).  say if the wind is against you - you can angle in at 15 degrees from the center of the path every 6-7 feet.  i used to battle the wind straight on.  but, this little thing (after 20 years of cycling) has been a new thing to try.  i should have bought a cycling magazine when i first started.

anyway, the most dangers i have been in is extreme heat, coyotes, and wild dogs.  this was back in lancaster where i should have been scared of drivebys or someone who would run me off the road.  i should have been more concerned about excaped inmates from a prison right next to where we used to live in lancaster, ca.  (funny, now, we are 10 miles from another state prison in pa).  anyway, excaped convicts never really worried me because all the people on our block worked at the prison - and they would be the last people the inmates would want to see if they got out. 

the worst situation i found myself in was two huge dobermans that escaped from somewhere and were standing in the middle of the street blocking my ride home.  as usual, i always pan the entire area that i am heading and never just look straight down to ride.  i saw them in the distance and just turned around and decided to go the long way.  but the heat was getting over 100 degrees at that point (with the pavement) so i hitched a ride with someone who was probably picking up someone at the prison.  and, they were probably drinking beer on top of it.  i just prayed - please God, i didn't try to get into this situation. 

i always put my bicycle inbetween me and any person or animal that comes along - so i'd have put the bike there and taken advantage of the fact they might have been drinking.  usually people don't react too fast when that's the case.  thankfully, they let me off where i asked and i got home.  in my mind, if you are in trouble you have to create a large amount of chaos in the shortest amount of time possible.  and leave bits and pieces of your tracks all over.  jackie chan is my favorite martial arts guy because he is very light and lean and doesn't aim for physical hugeness and large movements - but light, fast, small ones.  and his aim is to leave the situation,t oo.  he often rolls, or jumps or whatever.  these small movements are minimal and save his energy.

[prometheus]

Ok, thanks for the comment. I may now very little but I am not totally ignorant about it. I wasn't really making clear if I was talking about muay thai in a traditional thai way, or Europeans doing it partly thai or not thai at all. And then we also have kickboxing and K-1, and the like.

[Motrax]

Thank you for your replies, everyone. I've found this topic to be quite interesting, even though I've never done martial arts myself (besides getting up to a green belt in karate back in third grade  ). It's always interested me, though, and I plan to start this year. Are there any specific styles which are particularly good to start with?

[bernhard]

Thank you for your replies, everyone. I've found this topic to be quite interesting, even though I've never done martial arts myself (besides getting up to a green belt in karate back in third grade  ). It's always interested me, though, and I plan to start this year. Are there any specific styles which are particularly good to start with?

It depends on your inclination and physicality. Since you are young, you can probably do anything.

Here are some useful distinctions:

1.   Soft X hard martial arts.

The soft martial arts have little contact and employ a lot of locks and throws. At the more esoteric levels you try to develop some sort of “inner energy” that not only gives you health (or even immortality if you believe the more outrageous claims) and it is this energy that you use in fighting, rather than force (Chinese: Chi; Japanese: Ki). Good examples of the more down to earth soft arts are Judo and Jujutsu, and the more esoteric, Aikido, Tai-Chi-Chuan, Bagwa (Pakua) and Hsing-I. Personally I love Aikido and Bagwa.

The hard martial arts (looked upon with some derision by the softies), usually look at the softies with some derision as too much hocus pocus. They are mostly based on strike and sheer power. Good examples are Taekwondo,  Karate, Wing-Chun, Lao-Gar, which have lots of kicks and punches.

However at the higher levels, you will find that there is a lot of traffic between both schools, it is more the starting point. In China it is more or less traditional wisdom that when young one should start on the hard styles since one has the physical abilities and energy to cope, and as one gets older one should move towards the soft styles. Within the hard styles, I particularly like the Goju-ryu style of karate.

Then you have ecletic systems that try to get the best of everything (not always successfully) like Korean Hapkido and Israeli Kravmaga.

2.   Athletic X discreet martial arts.

There are some very athletic and physically demanding martial arts out there (not for the old arthritic guys like myself, I´m afraid). Chinese Wushu comes to mind, but arguably the most spectacular of those is “Capoeira” a Brazilian martial art of African origin, the original inspiration for most breakdance/street dance moves. You need to have a certain biotype to excel at it though (thin, short, low center of gravity). These martial arts are the ones that make it to the movies, because they look so spectacular. The main criticism against them is that their moves although impressive are note realistic, and would not work in most real fights (I tend to agree).

Discreet martial arts are very subtle. The fighter moves little and you do not even see how he hit you. But when he does you collapse. A lot of these martial arts involve precise anatomical knowledge of vital points in the body and demand little strength to be effective (how hard do you have to poke someone´s eyes to cause damage?). Usually there is not a specific martial art, but rather a body of knowledge that is exploited by a range of martial arts in their more advance levels. Not everyone has this knowledge though (In China this sort o knowledge is called Dim mak, in Japan, Kyushu-Jutsu)

3.   Weapons X unarmed.

Some martial arts will include “traditional” weapons at the more advanced levels. For instance, in Aikido the Japanese sword and the short wooden staff (Jo). In certain styles of Karate and Taekwondo the long staff (bo), sais and nunchakus.

Other martial arts start straight away to train you in the use of weapons and only on the advanced levels will teach you unarmed combat. For instance Kali (or Escrima) starts with short sticks, machetes and knives, and then uses the same moves in unarmed combat.

Finally some martial arts concentrate solely on traditional weapons only, like Kendo (Japanese Fencing).

Kung Fu has a weird and extensive arsenal of all sorts of weapons as well.

I particularly like the staff (both long and short) and knife fighting (comes in handy). It is also great for the wrists!

This is of course just the tip of the melting iceberg, and I suggest you do a lot of googling and visit a number of different styles/dojos in your area. Do some sample lessons (most dojos will allow you to join a first lesson for free), and see what you personally feel more attracted to. Also make sure you have a good, skilled instructor (notice I have not said “qualified”, since there are really no qualifications in these things, and qualified usually means that the guy is a PE instructor with a first aid course).

Instead pay attention to these important tell tales:

1.   Injuries. Proper martial arts training should be completely injury free. You cannot defend yourself in a real situation if you are injured from the training to defend yourself. In my youth I used to go to a karate club where if someone punched your nose and your nose bled, you would proudly sign your name on the wall with your own blood. This is absurd (if anything the guy who punched you should be signing his name!). So avoid full-contact styles, and especially avoid weapons training done with real weapons (if you are learning knife fighting, for instance, all knives should be rubber kknives)

2.   Closely related to the first is the militaristic approach. Especially in the Japanese martial arts there is a trend to treat martial arts classes as Army Camp. Martial artists are not soldiers, and martial arts training is not army training (I will ellaborat on this if you want). So avoid the military.

3.   Likewise avoid the other extreme which is the overtly spiritual  instructor. In certain styles you have to become a priest of the founders religion before they impart you the more advanced knowledge. This is, of course, all rubbish.

4. Make sure the instructor is not pumping his ego by beating up the students (far more common than you would imagine). The best instructors I had were always very humble, modest and unassuming individuals that never revealed the full awesomeness of their art (in a class situation).

4.   Look not only at the instructor, but at the students. A class of boisterous bullies is to be avoided at all costs. True martial artists should be on the ridiculous side of polite and gentle.

In short, take your time, investigate and see what you personally like. And if you feel uneasy change schools/styles.

Martial arts are great fun! Enjoy!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[mephisto]

Is Judo considered a martial art?

Pluss Ju Jutsu, why do you call it a soft martial art, when it encompasses so many styles? Both Judo and Karate wich are very different, do both take Ju Jutsu as a starting point(Jigiro Kano, the founder of Judo was a very good Ju Jutsu "fighter"). Ju Jutsu is merely the name of all the fighting styles in Japan than evolved after the Samurai`s weren`t allowed to carry Weapons anymore.

[bernhard]

Is Judo considered a martial art?

Pluss Ju Jutsu, why do you call it a soft martial art, when it encompasses so many styles? Both Judo and Karate wich are very different, do both take Ju Jutsu as a starting point(Jigiro Kano, the founder of Judo was a very good Ju Jutsu "fighter"). Ju Jutsu is merely the name of all the fighting styles in Japan than evolved after the Samurai`s weren`t allowed to carry Weapons anymore.

Ok. Let us split hairs then.  (But do notice that Motrax asked a “beginner´s question” so he got a “beginner´s answer”)

Up to 1869 in Japan, “martial arts” were family property. You could only learn them if you were part of the family, or at least if you were a vassal samurai (in which case you would be considered part of the family). However there were levels: no one was taught the full art, only the “heir” of the style. A very famous case was Choki Motobu, one of most feared fighters in Japan. His famlily had developed its own style (Motobu-ryu) yet, Choki was not allowed to learn it because he was not the first son. So instead he went to Okinawa to learn Karate (his brother who learned the full thing got killed in second world war so the system was lost).

Anyway, as I said, before 1869, martial arts in Japan were primarily “weapons” affairs. Unarmed combat was a “plan B” in case you lost your sword or your halberd. There were all sorts of styles (“ryus”) each claiming to be the best. As a Samurai you would learn not only all sorts of weaponry but also unarmed combat (“tai – jutsu”) comprising a full curriculum: Strikes (“atemi waza”), throws (“Nage waza”), locks (“Kansetsu waza”), strangles (“Shime waza”) and wrestling (ground work or “Katame waza”).

However – as you said – with the Meiji restoration in 1869 the Samurai class became extinct overnight. They were disarmed, ordered to cut their top-knot hair and become westernised as quickly as possible. The great martial arts masters of the time quickly realized that they have to do something about it, or their arts would be completely lost. In a famous meeting of all sorts of styles that took place in 1906, it was decided that the only way forward was to open the styles beyond the immediate sphere of clan and family. At the same time, the masters did not want to share openly their secrets (for several reasons – not only a “guild mentality”, but also so that they would not be used by criminal elements). What they come up with was a very interesting solution.

First they changed the focus from “craftsmanship” (jutsu) to “way of life” (“Do”) which to Western ears sound very much like a religion, but in the East is a very widespread concept not necessarily tied with any religious affiliation (of course, religion can be a “Do” itself, so “way of life” encompasses and supersedes religion – not the other way round as in the West).

Then they split the curriculum: Now you did not learn a complete martial art, but rather parts of it. So the complete curriculum of a Samurai became split into strikes (“Karate-do”), rough throws and primitive locks (“Ju-Do”), subtle throws and sophisticated locks (“Ai-Ki-Do”), and fencing (“Ken-Do), while before you would have Ju-jutsu, Karate-jutsu, Ai-Ki-jutsu and Ken-jutsu (There are other martial arts as well, like Bo-jutsu/Bo – staff fighting as well as Japanese archery and so on, but we do not need to discuss all of them to understand the general principle).
 
So a student would be accepted in a Dojo (“training hall”) and be taught an incomplete system. For instance, if he chose Judo, he would not be taught how to strike, and he would be indoctrinated into throwing by only holding on the arm and lapels of his opponent. Any other style of throw (for instance by grabbing a single leg of the opponent) would be frowned upon and considered “inferior” and not worthy of the superior style of Judo. Arm locks of a primitive kind would be allowed, but leg locks would be forbidden (a major feature of its predecessor ju-jutsu – from which Judo practitioners wanted to distance themselves since it was considered a ruffian’s/gangster/low life province).

Likewise, if you enrolled in a karate school, you would be taught only strikes (and very powerful ones at that). Grappling and throwing was considered tabu – as a karate guy once told me, karate was such a superior art that it was not necessary to learn grappling: the opponent who tried it on a karate person would be killed before it ever came to that. When I proceeded to lock and strangle him without too much difficulty (since he knew nothing of grappling) he still maintained his philosophical stand. (I guess it was then that I first came across the Hanonite mindset: completely impervious to reasoning).

Kendo people would never touch a real sword and do all their fighting in heavy armour and bamboo swords. If you wanted to experiment with a live blade, you would have to enroll on a different martial art: Iai-do which only dealt with drawing the sword from the scabbard – no fencing at all. Needless to say, enrolling on a different martial art with a different teacher was akin to high treason. If you were found out, you would be expelled from the Dojo in disgrace (and probably your new teacher would do the same, since if you did it to one you would do it to the next).

So as you can see, in the early days (after 1870) any normal student would be taught a watered down, incomplete and very ineffective version of what once was a powerful system of combined armed and unarmed combat. And this was done on purpose for the protection of the system.

After a number of years (in the beginning there were no coloured belts – these were introduced by the Americans after 1949), usually 5 or 6, the master would know you very well. Also these first years were made unbearably hard and dull, so if you did not give up, this already said something about your character. In any case, after 5 or 6 years the master would decide if you were worthy to receive the “secrets” of the style. This had to do as much with personal talent (physical facility for the style) as with character. Also, even if you were deemed worthy, you might not receive all the secrets. These were still reserved for the “heir” of the system. You see, each master had the obligation to pass the total knowledge for the next generation, and only one disciple was chosen to occupy that role.

The “secrets” of course usually pertained to what had been left out, so one ended up with the ironical situation that what were the “highest” secret of a style, often were the first thing you ever learned in a different style. So karate people “basic” techniques were punches and kicks. While Judo basic techniques were grappling and throwing (in my time strangle and lock techniques were considered secret techniques taught only to black belts). However once you got your black belt in karate, you would be taught (all in hush hush tones) about grappling and throwing! (Usually badly since the karate people really did not have a clue about it), while judo people would be taught striking after they got their black belt (again usually badly, since they did not have a clue).

In the early days, when all that was being implemented, it was thought that karate was the poorest of the styles, after all it was only strikes. So they added “forms” (“kata”) to karate – something that even today is very poorly understood and many students dislike them. Often you hear instructors say that “kata” is the soul of karate looking like Lang Lang playing Liebestraum. But when you probe further you realize they have no idea what the moves of the katas actually mean. In fact most of the kata movements are throws, locks and grappling techniques disguised. They may look like punches, and they may be explained as blocks, but they are nothing of the sort.

Let me digress for a moment here. Before 1869 Martial arts training was done in total secrecy because surprise is a big element in winning a fight. The Gracie people (Jujutsu) were able to win challenge after challenge and remain invincible because their opponents have no idea what to expect, and their techniques were very unusual and surprising. But then they decide to go public on TV. And for a while they seemed invincible. But with videos of their fights it became child´s play to figure out how to neutralize them, and now they are history.

So, one important issue was how to keep the art secret and at the same time public. In the case of karate katas, they kept the correct motions since they wanted the student to ingrain the correct motions and not be riddled with bad habits that would have to be dismantled once he reached the higher levels. But they provided the wrong explanations for the moves. So what was wristlock became a punch, what was a strike to a vital point became a block, what was a throw was “some weird movement we don´t really know what it is for, but it looks pretty and it has been handed down to us by tradition, so we do it, and please stop asking questions” - as a instructor once put to me. Then of course I showed him what it was all about and he was speechless.

Then you have the marketing prop of calling this and that martial art the “true traditional style”. Well, as you have gathered by now, Judo, Taekwondo,  Karate, Aikido, have nothing traditional about them. They are modern versions (100 years old) – mostly ineffective in combat as they are presently taught – of some very efficient old forms of combat.

Again, in the case of karate, it is important to realize that Korean, Japanese and American forms of karate are heavily corrupted from lack of information.

Karate is derived from a mixture of diverse styles of kungfu and the indigenous Okinawan martial art of To-de. Okinawan styles of karate are incredibly effective and complete systems of combat – contrary to Japanese, and American forms, for instance. Goju Ryu – a style I particularly favour - has the most interesting katas of all styles (it is heavily influenced by White Crane kungfu) and does not even look like the karate one is used to watch (usually Shotokan – the most widespread style in the West), katas that cover in their applications all of the basic aikido techniques (a martial art with heavy Chinese influence, again from White Crane and Bagwa).

The Chinese martial arts are another universe altogether. Up to Bruce Lee, they were mostly the province of triad criminals and again practiced in utmost secrecy (one of the reasons traditional Chinese Martial artists so resented Bruce Lee opening them up – contrary to their Japanese counterparts, the Chinese Martial arts were never in peril of disappearing, so there was no real need to make them public).

So as you can see, this is a very complex subject, and the discussion, “Is this or that a martial art” is a bit moot.

Finally in regards to Jigoro Kano, he was first and foremost an educator. He was Ministry of education in Japan, and his pet project was to make Judo the official PE program in Japan – in which he largely succeeded. He had learned many styles of Ju-jutsu – a martial art (or system of fighting if you prefer) that was generally regarded as the province of criminals and ruffians. Even amongst Samurais, Ju-jutsu was the province of the lowest rank of soldiers: the foot soldiers. So Jigoro Kano started to simplify and organize a curriculum, that consisted of some 150 “techniques” (comprising throws, locks, strangles and grappling). He then proceeded to show the superiority of Judo over ju-jutsu by inviting challenges from any ju-jutsu styles who cared to test themselves against Judo. As history shows, he was very successful and remained invincible. However I might now point two facts: many styles (wishing to remain secret) never challenged Kano. Secondly it was not Kano doing the fighting but the guy chosen to become the “heir” of Judo: Shiro Saigo (1867 – 1922) who due to his untimely death never received the mantle. And the cheating is this. Shiro Saigo was not just a Judo expert. He was a fully trained Daito-ryu fighter, being the pet student of no other than Sokaku Takeda (google him for more details). Daito- ryu was one of the most sophisticated forms of combat ever devised, and Sokaku Takeda one of his most accomplished masters. It is the precursor to aikido (Ueshiba, founder of aikido was a life long student of Takeda). At the time when Judo had 150 techniques, Daito-ryu had over 2000. So Shiro Saigo was defeating Jujutsu opponents with Daito-ryu (or aiki-jutsu as it is known nowadays) techniques, not Judo, and Kano was reaping the merit and benefits.

OK I will stop now , but I am always happy to talk about these things. However the more specific the question, the more useful the answer.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Ju Jutsu is merely the name of all the fighting styles in Japan than evolved after the Samurai`s weren`t allowed to carry Weapons anymore.

In the old days, yes, you are absolutely right.

But I was refering to modern ju-jutsu - of which exist many styles - I myself learned a Malaysian style called A-ta-do (or Ai-Tai-Tao in its Chinese form) which is very soft and Brazilian ju-jutsu which is on the harder side of the spectrum.

BW
B

[mephisto]

I am not trying to be a "smart-ass" or anything, but I knew all the things you wrote, exepct for a few minor points.

I am doing Judo, but mostly as a sport, and I have also been tought some Brasilian Ju Jutsu from an extremeley nice and modest Brasilian exchange student.

I do not belive that Judo in any way is superior to any other martial art.

[prometheus]

It was a nice post to read.

[steve jones]

Bernhard,

Great posts, very informative.

I would just like to add that there a couple of additional distinctions that I make.


1. Flashy vs Effective

Some martials arts are very exciting to observe, though offer little interms of self defence. Others look boring, but have great potential as street fighting systems (ie, may help you if you are ever attacked etc).

Its important to realise this, as often it is unclear to the beginner which is which. One can be wow'ed by fast spinning and jumping kicks, and assume that these are effective fighting systems in the modern world. This is not always the case. Some of the traditional systems have MAJOR flaws in their application in real life combat situations (stances and footwork which developed that do not allow for the defence against techniques that might be encountered on the street for example).

So think hard before committing to a system. Be sure that will help you achieve the specific goals that your set.


2. Sport / Combat Martials Arts vs None Combat Martial Arts

Related closely to the last point. Martial arts which involve real combat in sports type competitions (Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, some Jujitsu styles etc) have VERY different training regimes to those where competition is more exhibitional.

For instance, Wing Chun is a very effective martial art and has many dangerous techniques that would be to hazardous for a sport. However, the fact that they dont compete in this manner could be interpretted as a major flaw in the system, as real combat experience is rare if ever. I believe that combat experience is essential for those wishing to become 'effective' as a fighter in the real world.

Boxing on the other hand contains no highly dangerous techniques. Yet boxers train purely for combat. They spare regularly and are used to being hit. They also develop the fighting spirit and become mentally robust. As a result, they are extremely effective in street fights, EVEN considering the major limitations of the system.

In addition, the ring testing of techniques means that boxing and similar systems are constantly evolving to develop the effective techniques and lose the ineffective ones. Muay Thai for example has lost many of the traditional techniques, as they simply arent as effective in the ring. The footwork has changed significantly over the last 100 years. And now fighters are generally taught to have much greater respect for the fists.

Constant modification like this with real combat testing occurs far less in none sport systems, resulting in the retention of ineffective techniques. Indeed, consider how vastly different Kickboxing is to the traditional Karate styles from which it originated.

So depending again on who effective a fighter you wish to become (and what you're prepared to put into it), you may wish to consider sports martial arts and none sport martial arts seperately.

Ofcourse, that isnt to say that you cant learn sports martials arts purely for the art itself. Many people do this. But if you want to learn them properly, you really have to atleast train along side those that compete. You cant really be a boxer for example if you have never spared!

Hope this helps,

SJ

[steve jones]

I am not trying to be a "smart-ass" or anything, but I knew all the things you wrote, exepct for a few minor points.

I am doing Judo, but mostly as a sport, and I have also been tought some Brasilian Ju Jutsu from an extremeley nice and modest Brasilian exchange student.

I do not belive that Judo in any way is superior to any other martial art.

I think the Brazilian style Ju Jutsu is considered the most effective for self defence. It involves real combat and very few rules (as Im sure you know).

Most agree that if you combine this with Muay Thai then you have the ultimate fighting system (hence why UFC fighters all practice these styles or similar!).

SJ

[mephisto]

I have to specify I knew what bernhard said about the japanese martial arts, not what he said about the chinese. It was interesting reading.

[Motrax]

 

Thank you, Bernhard and Mr. Jones and Mephisto! I've found this all vastly interesting. I intended originally to begin with Aikido, as it has fascinated me for a while, but I wasn't sure whether I needed to begin with a "hard" art like Karate before moving to Aikido.

I appreciate it greatly!

- M

[prometheus]

As a kid I always wanted to do kung fu. As as a teenager up to now kendo has the most appeal.

My body is more suited for endurence sports and I lack finesse and balance. So I never practiced a martial arts yet. I may consider kendo once I move somewhere where I can actually practice it. And if I have the time.

Because of a football knee injury I don't want to risk any sport or martial arts where I risk twisting my knee again, though I don't know how bad my knee is when it comes to increased risk.

I am also interested in joining a chess club. I guess that is a martial arts as well.

[brewtality]

I think the Brazilian style Ju Jutsu is considered the most effective for self defence. It involves real combat and very few rules (as Im sure you know).

That's what MMA people would have you believe. But what if you were grappling on a hard street littered with broken glass?

[steve jones]

That's what MMA people would have you believe. But what if you were grappling on a hard street littered with broken glass?

I meant in terms of the grappling arts.

Clearly the optimum method is to stay on ones feet for as long as possible!

SJ

[rimv2]

There are some very athletic and physically demanding martial arts out there (not for the old arthritic guys like myself, I´m afraid). Chinese Wushu comes to mind, but arguably the most spectacular of those is “Capoeira” a Brazilian martial art of African origin, the original inspiration for most breakdance/street dance moves. You need to have a certain biotype to excel at it though (thin, short, low center of gravity). These martial arts are the ones that make it to the movies, because they look so spectacular. The main criticism against them is that their moves although impressive are note realistic, and would not work in most real fights (I tend to agree).

Not true.

Ahs 6'2 and can do it better than most. (two years ago before I quit that is)

And in a real fight this style is deadly -given its unpredictability, and the inability of the opponent to track your movements (less they know it as well).

An idea of the effectiveness

Capo vs street fighter -> Capo

Capo vs  TKD -> TKD

Capo vs Mui Tai-> Mui Tai

Capo vs tai Chi -> Capo

Capo vs Juijitsu -> toss up

Capo vs Hapkido -> Hapkido

Capo vs Karate -> Capo

Capo vs Wing chun -> Capo

Capoeira in ineffective only against Martial arts that are the hardest of the hard. Ultimately, the effectiveness of any style depends solely on the fighter (Even the face to fist style is effective, though not very helpful).

But in a real fight, most likely verses a random guy with no sort of training, Capo will win.

N look good doing it too

[prometheus]

Are there any Capoeira fighters in MMA, Pride or AFC?


I am sure that on the street sprinting is the most effective martial art.


But then again. I don't think how styles can compete and beat each others. Styles don't fight, right? People do. So I don't really understand how one can say one style beats another.


Furtermore, you say that everything Bernard says is 'not true', yet I think that you do not make any convincing argument against anything Bernard says. Bernard didn't say that Capoeira is ineffective. He says that most people have this opinion and that he 'tends to agree'. He also said that a certain biotype is needed to excel. Now you don't have this biotype. This doesn't mean you can't learn it. Furtermore, do you really excel at it?

Wait, now I realise that Bernard didn't type those lines in itallic but that you did to indicate these are the parts you want the 'not true' to apply. Well, anyway, my point still stands.

[bernhard]

Not true.

Ahs 6'2 and can do it better than most. (two years ago before I quit that is)

And in a real fight this style is deadly -given its unpredictability, and the inability of the opponent to track your movements (less they know it as well).

An idea of the effectiveness

Capo vs street fighter -> Capo

Capo vs  TKD -> TKD

Capo vs Mui Tai-> Mui Tai

Capo vs tai Chi -> Capo

Capo vs Juijitsu -> toss up

Capo vs Hapkido -> Hapkido

Capo vs Karate -> Capo

Capo vs Wing chun -> Capo

Capoeira in ineffective only against Martial arts that are the hardest of the hard. Ultimately, the effectiveness of any style depends solely on the fighter (Even the face to fist style is effective, though not very helpful).

But in a real fight, most likely verses a random guy with no sort of training, Capo will win.

N look good doing it too

Yes, we are all very attached to the dear little styles we practise...

On the other hand there is a secret level to Capoeira that makes it very effective: the use of razorblades (the old switchable kind) Have you ever come accross it? If not, you are missing something huge.

My own style got much more effective since I got a Kalashnikov to back it up (my next step is an Uzi - far more portable).

BW
B.

[Motrax]

Bernhard advocating the use of gun violence?! 

 

- M

[bernhard]

Bernhard advocating the use of gun violence?! 

 

- M

In the immortal words of Vincent (the assassin played by Tom Cruise in "Collateral"):

"I didn´t kill him. I shot him and threw him out of the window. The bullet and the fall killed him."

 

(Besides one must protect one´s hands to play the piano)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[00range]

My own style got much more effective since I got a Kalashnikov to back it up (my next step is an Uzi - far more portable).

Methinks Bernhard owns a tenth degree in Ching Ching Pow.

[bernhard]

Methinks Bernhard owns a tenth degree in Ching Ching Pow.

Eleventh.

[00range]

Eleventh.

 

[pianistimo]

bernhard and razor blades.  i can't quite see it.  i mean i could see him shaving and all - but suddenly chasing piano students.  not yet.  and yet, i see this girl with slit wrists. the one that came and said she didn't bring her music. 

what is ching ching pow.  it sounds like a car that is in reverse.  i say the element of surprise is better than all the martial arts in the world. say someone is an expert.  you wait for them to go to sleep.  you take a wet towel and waken them with a whap.  then, as they slowly awaken - you ask what their name, rank, social security number ,etc is.  then you say 'not anymore.'  it's mine now.  and make them give you their clothes.  (excepting the important ones).  and then, you leave them tied to the bedposts. 

[Motrax]

Pianistimo, is there something you're hiding from us...? 

- Motrax, who is quite frightened of not one, but two pf regulars now.

[pianistimo]

sorry.  occasioanlly i have these delusions of getting the best of my husband.

[ahinton]

bernhard and razor blades.  i can't quite see it.  i mean i could see him shaving

You really do seem to have quite a thing about shaving, don't you?

sorry. occasioanlly i have these delusions of getting the best of my husband.

That could be interpreted in more ways than one; whichever is your intended meaning here, however, I can only assume that, in the latest reorganisation of your bedroom (about which you have written extensively in another thread here), the most important thing in it must be your computer, from which you have made almost 4,400 posts to this forum alone.

I'm not sure quite what kind of marital artist that makes you...

Best,

Alistair

[Motrax]

Mister Hinton, please accept my humble gratitude for your willingness to post on these forums. My life, even when fullfilling, is made ever moreso by your cogent, subtly humorous posts. And during those times of opaque despondency which come all too often in this modern world, my faith in the beauty of all things living is only reaffirmed upon the examination of your most witty words.

Yours truly,

- M

 

[pianistimo]

is that how many i've made?  i know i should 'get a life' as they say.  the thing is that bernhard brought up the idea of the razors himself.  i didn't say it.  i was merely pointing out that he suddenly had an 'idea fix' in his head and was suddenly switching from the various instruments to razors.  i've never seen this type of fight, myself, except in those tv 911 calls between a husband and wife - where one is batterred and the other one says 'i didn't do it.'   then, he or she cries and tells the mate their sorry and to bail them out of jail.

or, someone in jail is just calmly cutting themselves with a plastic knife to pass the time.  or, the depressed girl who covers her wrists with wristbands for tennis players.

aside from self preservation - i think that the best way to survive 'an incident' is to not get in it in the first place.  that is what flashlights are for.  if you see something - you hit it.   


 

[pekko]

Is any one familiar with Yui Shin Kai karate?

[steve jones]

Eleventh.

Is that why you're students do so well - through fear of a deadly Eastern nipple cripple crane kick? 

Sounds like a plan, I shall have to remember that next time Im teaching!

SJ

[zheer]

  Well for pianists ,knowing basic self-defence and doing some form of work out is enough, no need to to learn a Martial Art even though its widly available for anyone willing to learn. However if you insist on learning an art for, Tai chi or yoga is a pretty good idea. Good luck.

[bernhard]

Is that why you're students do so well - through fear of a deadly Eastern nipple cripple crane kick? 

Sounds like a plan, I shall have to remember that next time Im teaching!

SJ

You bet!

(Though these days I favour wrist locks and eye gauging over fancy kicks).

[kitty on the keys]

What it all comes down to is what yo really want to achieve. How important is your playing and where it stands in your life. I have workrd with a trainer, who has a black belt, and what  i have learned has been great. I have no problems saying no to exercizes that will conflict with my playing. In the past 3 years, I have discovered Qui-Gong. It is a Chinese form of breathing, stretching, strengthing exercizes. Very similar to yoga and t' chi. I start my day with it every morning.
   That type of push up I find aggervating to the wrist. I stopped them when by octave and solid chord technic was not up to par----and feeling pain and fatigue in the wrist and forearm. When ever I take a class at the gym, I tell the instructor, I am a pianist and will not do certain exercizes that will cause ingery to my hand and arms. They are usually appreciative of that and offer alternitive exercizes---in tern this makes them a better instructor.
     The main goal with the martial arts is not the fighting, but the dicisipline, strength, and confidence you achive with this study. Never compensate your art just to break some bricks----is it really worth it?

Kitty

[brewtality]

     The main goal with the martial arts is not the fighting, but the dicisipline, strength, and confidence you achive with this study. Never compensate your art just to break some bricks----is it really worth it?

Well arguably breaking is all about having confidence in yourself and in your abilities. But I see your point, I'm not going to break tiles because piano means more to me. Btw, I'm getting my black belt in 3 weeks. Finally! 

[mephisto]

Great.

How long have you been doing TKD?

[brewtality]

Great.

How long have you been doing TKD?

7 years ( ) but I've been stranded on preliminary black for 3 years. School and Uni commitments, not to mention a fair dose of laziness, have slowed my progress in recent years.