questions for people who love or hate fast piano playing

[demented cow]

I was curious about what precisely people like/dislike about very fast piano playing, more specifically:
a) If you are a fan of such playing, can you put your finger on what types of very fast performances you enjoy (are moved by, etc.) and what types that don't do anything for you emotionally (even if you admire the performer's speed-to-accuracy ratio as a physical feat)?
b) If you like/dislike speed piano, do you like/dislike speed playing with other instruments/in other musical genres to the same degree (say organists, classical violinists, rock guitarists...)?
Will provide my answers later.
Regards,
The Cow

[pianistimo]

i think, for me, i like to hear a lighter french sounding fast (with a bit of speeding up as one gets faster).  i dislike speed and heaviness.  to me, it should sound like haifetz.

that said, i don't think speed proves anything other than a person can play fast.  musicality is a whole different ballgame.  what makes a piece fast and musical is probably the ability to practice it slowly and work up to tempo with correct fingerings and 'impressions' of whatever it is you are imitating.  having something in mind instead of mindlessly playing fast.

cassedesus impressed me with some mozart passages (actually everything i've heard him play).  pollini with chopin.  arrau with liszt.  but, virtuosity on a violin exceeds piano, imo.  haifetz cannot be outdone.

sometimes you'll hear an amazing concert by a young artist and wonder at the talent, as well.  youth does bring impetuous speeds and good neural connections.

[pianistimo]

here's an article entitled 'pianists and executioners'

i think it's a good read
www.hungarianquarterly.com/no164/20.html

[ramseytheii]

here's an article entitled 'pianists and executioners'

i think it's a good read
www.hungarianquarterly.com/no164/20.html

That's pretty good, except for one thing, a surprising error (or just laziness) for a scholar of Alan Walker's repute:
--
"Why do you play it so fast?" Horowitz was once asked.
"Because I can", he replied.
--
Actually, Horowitz asked Simon Barere after a performance of the Schumann Toccata, that question; and Barere gave that answer.

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

so you're a scholar, too, ehh.  i never remember who said what unless it's something that sticks in my mind with that person because of their personality.  i thought it sounded a bit odd for horowitz to say because he wasn't into speed as much as the 'whole' (including musicality).

[demented cow]

thanks also for the link, interesting. Off-topic-ly: Does anybody know if the bit about Liszt wanting tremolos to be as fast as possible irrespective of the notation is really true?

That's pretty good, except for one thing, a surprising error (or just laziness) for a scholar of Alan Walker's repute:
--
"Why do you play it so fast?" Horowitz was once asked.
"Because I can", he replied.
--
Actually, Horowitz asked Simon Barere after a performance of the Schumann Toccata, that question; and Barere gave that answer.

I read that Barere said something different to Horowitz, namely that he could play the toccata even faster. I actually wonder if Horowitz even asked the question: Horowitz' Toccata performance was probably the second fastest after Barere at the time. It's often impossible to know whether these anecdotes about what famous people are supposed to have said in private conversations are true, even if you read them in a book.
This reminds me of Landowska's famous comment 'You play Bach your way and I'll play him HIS way', which has apparently she didn't say at all.
What she really said was 'It's good to play Bach as fast as possible, 'cos dat way da audience hears more notes before dey fall asleep.' Anybody got the source for that? :-)

[verywellmister]

Sometimes, a fast performce is good, sometimes it's not.

A slow performance of Chopin Scherzo 1 is dull in my opinion.
Same with Rachmaninoff's Polichinelle, Op.4.

Have you ever heard Argerich play Scarlatti's Sonata in D minor, K.141?  It is amazingly fast, but I enjoy it.  There's a video of it on youtube.  now that's admirable.

Have you ever heard Richter play Ravel's Jeux d'eau?  That's also on youtube.  In my opinion, that is an example of bad fast playing (even though he has beautiful tone color).

Most non-musical audiences seem to like fast pieces.  I gave some performances of Schubert's Impromptu in Eb at school, each time with the same audience.  And when I played it faster, they seemed to like it better.

[faustsaccomplice]

That's pretty good, except for one thing, a surprising error (or just laziness) for a scholar of Alan Walker's repute:
--
"Why do you play it so fast?" Horowitz was once asked.
"Because I can", he replied.
--
Actually, Horowitz asked Simon Barere after a performance of the Schumann Toccata, that question; and Barere gave that answer.

Walter Ramsey

I always knew the quote to be: "Ah, Volodya, I can play it even faster."

Both are cute and cocky at the same time.

[arensky]

here's an article entitled 'pianists and executioners'

i think it's a good read
www.hungarianquarterly.com/no164/20.html

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this! 

[pianistimo]

sure.  it was sort of a fluke.  i was actually looking up which pianists can play supposedly the fastest - and was entranced by the title 'pianist or executioner.'  i thought it was funny.

[franz_]

If you ONLY like to hear fast thing, or if you ONLY like to hear slow things, I think you can't understand music.

[brewtality]

but, virtuosity on a violin exceeds piano, imo.  haifetz cannot be outdone

If we are talking about speed, then yes. BUT arguably a more important aspect of virtuosity is FUUUURRRRYY. In this respect the piano is certainly king of all instruments.

Kinda off topic, but I have to profess my dislike for Heifetz! I like Milstein and Oistrakh much better.

[pianistimo]

will take a listen.  had no idea there were other virtuoso's of the violin with the same talent.

i've not seen a pianist with fury in quite a few years.  i think it was a romantic tendency that sort of died out.  berevsky might have a sort of 'green giant' kind of fury - but i'm looking for the kind that gets lighter and faster and uses less body weight.  in fact,the person may be stick thin.  sort of pollinish.  if he doesn't wear italian shoes - forget the whole thing.  koji might work.  yes.  now that i think about it - koji has a lot of the skill sets i'm thinking and the italian shoes. 

[arbisley]

Most of the reasonable things have already been said. It's true that fast performance is always interesting, because you can say so much more about it BECAUSE of the speed. Was the interpretation correct despite the speed? What did the audience think of the speed? etc.etc.etc.

On the other hand, I do find it rather annoying when performers play fast to hide their musical inabilities, and are more appreciated as a performer because of their unmusicality. Particularly when a piece is supposed to be slow and expressive and is turned into fast and aggressive.

Interpreting a piece is another question. How can I show what I mean despite going fast? It is actually also a good test as to wether the practice has been done correctly, that although the piece is fast, there is freedom and phrasing. Yet also slow pieces can be played by giving an impression of hurrying along. It's a comment made somwhere else on the forum that it's like being on the motorway: look at the bits far away, and it seems to be going slowly, but if you look at the tufts of grass along the road, it goes past very very quickly. It's all a matter of judging when to display these different aspects within a piece.

[brewtality]

On the other hand, I do find it rather annoying when performers play fast to hide their musical inabilities

I find it rather more common for performers to play m*sically to hide their technical inabilities.

[Derek]

I often find that when a piece of music is played too fast, it "blurrs" a lot of the original intended musical effects. For example, contrasting Jorge Bolet's performance of Wild Chase by Liszt with Claudio Arrau's:  I find there are many rhythms in the piece which really are outlined and clear in Arrau's performance. You cannot hear these in Bolet's because: 1) He plays the accompaniment TOO softly and 2) He plays too fast.

I am of the personal opinion that classical performance is being gradually sped up because that is the only thing in which any objective competition is really possible. Sort of like a musical olympics competition.

[mephisto]

I am of the personal opinion that classical performance is being gradually sped up because that is the only thing in which any objective competition is really possible. Sort of like a musical olympics competition.

DA ZEPP?

[chromatickler]

a gud fake, true 

[arbisley]

well, Heifetz enjoyed speed competitions with another violinist once upon a time... He even raced against the orchestras as one can hear from the recordings!

[dnephi]

here's an article entitled 'pianists and executioners'

i think it's a good read
www.hungarianquarterly.com/no164/20.html

Hey you randomly took my article....   .  I found that by googling "How to properly play mazeppa" and somehow you have it.   

[pianistimo]

i had it before you had it.  look at the date.   that's ok.  you can read it too.  i thought it was quite descriptive also.  made me laugh and i caught the title before anything else.

[demented cow]

What moves me (as opposed to just impressing me) with SOME fast performances is a sense of 'fury', which Brewtality mentioned. I don't know if I can define it well. Here’s an attempt:
a. I think fury is more likely to happen in passages in minor keys, because it’s connected to darker emotional forces. I think that’s why Barere’s speed playing in the Liszt sonata, Don Juan, Chopin 1st & 4th ballades moves me while his Islamey, Schumann Toccata, Gnomenreigen don’t do so as much.
b. I think the speed somehow has to go hand in hand with a sense of unchecked emotion and/or dark forces. The explosions in the 1st movt of the Appassionata lose their emotional impact if too slow. Or the repeated chord passages in the Dante Sonata. They're meant to be depicting desperate panic at the prospect of Hell, not a stroll through the art gallery. One way (maybe not the only way) is to play them very fast. In fact, none of the performances I've heard (=Cziffra, Berman, Ogden, Jando, Grimaud, Hough) plays them at a tempo that I think realises this (maybe human players can’t do so without losing rhythmic clarity). BTW, I'm not saying every emotional outburst should be maximally fast. The Pathetique 1st movt is often done too fast IMO.
c. The occasional wrong note helps because it adds some dissonance and sounds like the pianist is following the emotion rather than worrying about being squeaky clean. Recall Horowitz' claim (lie?) that he sometimes deliberately played wrong notes to get certain effects. Hamelin is too accurate to generate much fury.
d. With octave passages, an increase in speed is more effective than using one's maximal speed throughout, e.g. the octave passage towards the end of the Liszt sonata.
e. Same goes for fortissimo: listen to passages where you think Cziffra is at fff and he suddenly gets louder, which is better than if he had played his loudest all throughout the passage.
f. Fury seems to be increased if the contiguous slow passages are very slow.
g. The piano is a very good instrument for generating fury on. Many other instruments (guitar, violin, flute, organ, harpsichord) are not as good as vehicles for fury. I think that’s why I don’t feel moved by technical exhibitions on other instruments. As I define the term, fury seems impossible in jazz (Tatum doesn't generate fury), but a good thrash metal band can generate it as well as a good fury merchant at the piano.

Caveat: When talking about speed playing, I am talking about performances in which the performer is not detracting from the piece with too many wrong notes or with lack of musical details like phrasing, articulation, dynamic contrast, etc. If you hear that in a fast performance, it means that the performance is sub-par, not that speed is intrinsically bad.

Yours furiously,
The Cow

[dnephi]

About "wrong notes"... make sure they're in the right places.  Don't miss a landing on an octave after a jump, because landing it with fury is ...
Fury ... :p.

I agree with most of what he said.  I can't condone wrong notes much, but they happen sometimes, and the best time for them to happen is in moments like the descending octaves of the Mazeppa.  And then, sometimes, it can elevate.

Fury is in speed, EXPRESSION, and volume.  Everything really loud just doesn't mean much.  To shape it properly, and put all the emotion possible in, that is fury.  Notjce that few people play the Mazeppa with the crescendo in the chromatic thirds.  But that gives it far more feeling and far more fury.

Now, the piano is not necessarily the ultimate vehicle for fury.  There is one equal, or greater.  And that is the organ.  You have to hear/see Bach on an organ to know fury.