Pedal markings

[lagin]

I was wondering if anyone could explain to me the difference between a pedal marking that is a capital, fancy looking "P," and one that looks like a little flower without a stem?  They are both used frequently in the Urtext edition of Chopin's Scherzi.  Thanks.

[quasimodo]

I was wondering if anyone could explain to me the difference between a pedal marking that is a capital, fancy looking "P," and one that looks like a little flower without a stem?  They are both used frequently in the Urtext edition of Chopin's Scherzi.  Thanks.

The flower means "release the pedal", the P "depress the pedal"

[lagin]

Thanks quasimodo.  Does that mean that between a "flower" and a "P" there should be no pedal, or does a "flower" simply mean a pedal change?
Thanks

[quasimodo]

does a "flower" simply mean a pedal change?

yes, rather that. It depends on the music, obviously.

[pianistimo]

york bowen has a good book entitled 'pedalling the modern pianoforte.'  in it, he mentions a lot of things about pedal technique.  one of which i recently was reminded of in grad school.  that minimal useage of it - as well as finding the damping spot and not using the typical 'tap tap' of a foot raised too high.

york bowen explains many features of pedalling that are not inherent in a first glance at a suggested (suggested) pedalling.  you may decide that you want, for instance, to pedal less or more than indicated for various reasons.  i wanted to pedal much more in brahms intermezzo op. 118 - but my teacher said - use the fingers more.  it was very hard at first.  then i realized that i COULD actually do it.  i thought my fingers were too short and i needed pedalling.  now i realize that it is often a crutch.

now, from what your repertoire list is lagin - i think you already understand many of these things but need a teacher to reinforce and help you listen to your own playing.  that is what my teacher did for me.  he would help me listen better.  i thought i heard 'mushiness' well - but it's not just mushiness of notes - but also an actual pedal technique that works for you.  that makes notes 'shine' at the right place and yet - doesn't make people think you are using the pedal to 'cover up' anything. 

york's note:  'in all the examples quoted in the course of this book, the author has adopted what seems to him the simplest form of pedal markings, viz.: 'Ped' is abbreviated to the sign 'P' and is followed by a line to show the length of holding, which, IF JOINED TO THE NEXT SIGN, means a 'legato' change.  if otherwise, then the moment for raising the pedal is indicated by a small arrow pointing upwards.  the absence of any lines between pedal signs should normally mean legato, and there is really no necessity for these in the ordinary way save when the pedal is to be raised between chords.  the old-fashioned 'stop' (flower) sign is unnecessary and clumsy looking.'

this kind of repeats what i said earlier about completely changing the pedal markings sometimes to better suit your style.  you may want to control sustain by using your fingers in some places - and others the pedal.   you may want a more legato sound or help with accents in certain places.  what i've found is light pedalling that is quick and clear is much better than a slow foot.  work on speed and occasional 'flutter' pedalling - and you'll feel more in control.  (the speed has a lot to do with finding that damper spot - which sometimes is halfway depressing the pedal before you get there - but not so much as to blur sound - just right AT the damper).

[lagin]

Wow, thanks for the very informative response!   I did notice that I was accused of "blurring" the pedal in a few spots in my last exam, but at least it's getting better.  It was only one piece this year, whereas a couple years ago, it was written on almost every piece. 

My teacher was working with me on finding that "damper point" and really keeping the pedalling very "surface" in my baroque pieces.   I think she was going to teach me to properly flutter pedal, because we discovered that I actually don't do it, but rather rhymic pedal very fast .  Oh, yeah, and I forgot, she is big on legato fingering first, then adding pedal where necessary.  I guess I really didn't realize how many topics regarding pedal we actually hit! 

I think you're right, pianistimo, I "understand" the concepts, but I really need to learn to listen for them better.  Right now is a good time to start because I'm just learning new repertoire and don't have it full of bad pedal habits yet

It's funny how different teachers focus on different aspects of pedalling.  I've noticed this since I just recently switched.  I will have to be more aware in my own teaching as well as to ensuring effective pedal use.  It seems to be easier to change in your own playing than to try to change in someone elses.  I guess it's a bit like rubato, in that you develope a "feel" for it.

[quasimodo]

Anyway, don't conceptualize it too much. It's your ear that should guide your foot. Yet, the hard part is to learn to listen to oneself playing.