\"\"
Piano Forum logo

Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata (Read 2231 times)

Offline kaiwin

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
« on: August 06, 2006, 04:10:06 AM »
Some go slow on the third movement and some go fast. I personally like it faster because I feel it flows more. Slower just seems boring. What do you guys think?

piano sheet music of Sonata 23 (Appassionata)


Offline Kassaa

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1576
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #1 on: August 06, 2006, 06:27:10 AM »
I'm now working on the third movement, I aim for a very high tempo.
Everything will pass, and the world will perish but the Waldstein Sonata will remain.

Offline quantum

  • PS Gold Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5577
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #2 on: August 06, 2006, 09:04:23 AM »
Too fast means you loose the detalied melodic contours that Beethoven used in his accompanimenets. 

Eg: I don't like Richters recording, as it is too fast. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline thalbergmad

  • PS Gold Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16609
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #3 on: August 06, 2006, 10:05:16 AM »
Myra Hess speed i feel is about right.
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline Kassaa

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1576
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #4 on: August 06, 2006, 10:47:59 AM »
Gilels live rec from prague speed is the perfect tempo for me.
Everything will pass, and the world will perish but the Waldstein Sonata will remain.

Offline brewtality

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 924
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #5 on: August 06, 2006, 10:58:48 AM »
Gilels live rec from prague speed is the perfect tempo for me.

But it is pitched a half step sharp. True, the tempo is correct. Anything over 4'30" without the repeat is unacceptable (unless the pianist is Levy).

Offline e60m5

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 371
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #6 on: August 06, 2006, 11:18:56 AM »
It depends on what you feel the movement to mean.  I used to play it extremely fast, but my view of the movement has since changed.  Previously, I saw it as a storm, a whirlwind, not unlike the last movement of 27/2; these days, however, I see it more as a lament and as a song (vocally speaking), in light of which I feel a fast tempo feels rather... stupid.  But, tempo in this movement is above all an individual qestion. 

Offline mike_lang

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1496
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #7 on: August 06, 2006, 12:35:14 PM »
Let's not forget that we have the apparently vague tempo marking "not too fast."

ML

Offline maxy

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 650
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #8 on: August 06, 2006, 03:25:58 PM »
It depends on what you feel the movement to mean.  I used to play it extremely fast, but my view of the movement has since changed.  Previously, I saw it as a storm, a whirlwind, not unlike the last movement of 27/2; these days, however, I see it more as a lament and as a song (vocally speaking), in light of which I feel a fast tempo feels rather... stupid.  But, tempo in this movement is above all an individual qestion. 

nicely said!  unfortunately, most people won't respect that.  It makes that piece a big risk whenever it has to be played for a jury.

Offline xavierm

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 69
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #9 on: August 06, 2006, 04:35:20 PM »
As long as you leave room for the presto at the end, you can be pretty liberal with it. I'm pretty sure the reason Beethoven said not too fast was so the presto at the end can really be effective. Of course you don't want to blast through the piece without any thought (cough, or give it the lang lang treatment) however a nice brisk pace can be excitement to what is supposed to be a very exciting movement.

Offline quantum

  • PS Gold Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5577
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #10 on: August 06, 2006, 08:11:36 PM »
I think that many concentrate too much on the excitement of the movement, and forget about the inherent expressivity that Beethoven has built in.  The contours of the figurations suggest there is more to be said than just fast playing.  In other words, I feel that there is a built in  expressive melodic line within the accompaniment figures. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline airasia

  • PS Silver Member
  • Jr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 63
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #11 on: August 07, 2006, 04:14:17 AM »
Depends how you're feeling at the moment, i play it different speeds all the time, and different volumes.

Offline brewtality

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 924
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #12 on: August 07, 2006, 08:33:01 AM »
I think that many concentrate too much on the excitement of the movement, and forget about the inherent expressivity that Beethoven has built in.  The contours of the figurations suggest there is more to be said than just fast playing.  In other words, I feel that there is a built in  expressive melodic line within the accompaniment figures. 

If it is really inherent it should come through no matter what the speed. Fast doesn't necessarily mean that subtlety is lost. I don't think I understand your last statement, are you referring to inner voices (or lines)?

Offline quantum

  • PS Gold Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5577
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #13 on: August 12, 2006, 02:22:36 PM »
If it is really inherent it should come through no matter what the speed. Fast doesn't necessarily mean that subtlety is lost.

True, but too many people just stop refining their performance when it get's fast enough.

I don't think I understand your last statement, are you referring to inner voices (or lines)?

Yes, inner voices.
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline steve jones

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1380
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #14 on: August 20, 2006, 04:46:38 AM »
Some go slow on the third movement and some go fast. I personally like it faster because I feel it flows more. Slower just seems boring. What do you guys think?

I like it both ways to be honest. Rubi does it pretty fast, Arrau goes a bit slower, but I love both recordings.

For me, speed isnt make or break with this piece.

SJ

Offline alejo_90

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 272
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #15 on: August 20, 2006, 10:57:14 PM »
I like it both ways to be honest. Rubi does it pretty fast, Arrau goes a bit slower, but I love both recordings.

For me, speed isnt make or break with this piece.

SJ


Yeah, I agree with you, I like it both fast and slow, but Rubinstein's tempo isn't much faster than Arrau's on the third movement. I think you were referring to the first movement. Rubinstein's tempo on the that movement is quite fast, but Arrau's is very slow.

Best
Alex
It's better to make your own mistakes than copy someone else's. - Vladimir Horowitz

Offline persona

  • PS Silver Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #16 on: August 21, 2006, 07:29:00 AM »
Let me tell you: the first version I ever listened to was Richter's. I loved it. A few weeks later, I got Arrau's recordings of the 32 piano sonatas, I went straight to Apassionata to find it was incredibly slower. The first thing that came to my mind was "why doesn't this guy wait till he masters a respectable tempo, and then record this sonata?", but now I got used to the slow version, and to tell you the truth, when I listen to Richter's I feel it lacks meaning. It's hard to explain, but I sense Arrau's to express certain emotions the faster version doesn't.

Offline zheer

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2780
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #17 on: August 22, 2006, 05:24:14 PM »
Some go slow on the third movement and some go fast. I personally like it faster because I feel it flows more. Slower just seems boring. What do you guys think?

  Yes and no, if played too fast the MVT will sound like pure rage, crazy or manic. On the other if played slow it can sound boring or flat, sadly thats what my intrpretation of this MVT sounds like at the momment some may disagree. I think it should flow , sound very soft dark mysterious never rushed, so faster than Allegretto and slightly slower slower than Allegro.
" Nothing ends nicely, that's why it ends" - Tom Cruise -

Offline alejo_90

  • PS Silver Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 272
Re: Beethoven "Appassionata" Sonata
«Reply #18 on: August 24, 2006, 03:38:35 AM »
Let me tell you: the first version I ever listened to was Richter's. I loved it. A few weeks later, I got Arrau's recordings of the 32 piano sonatas, I went straight to Apassionata to find it was incredibly slower. The first thing that came to my mind was "why doesn't this guy wait till he masters a respectable tempo, and then record this sonata?", but now I got used to the slow version, and to tell you the truth, when I listen to Richter's I feel it lacks meaning. It's hard to explain, but I sense Arrau's to express certain emotions the faster version doesn't.

I've never heard Richter's Appassionata, would you mind to upload it? I'd aprecciate it very much.

Best
Alex
It's better to make your own mistakes than copy someone else's. - Vladimir Horowitz