Dies Irae

[ramseytheii]

This infamous tune!
How does one refer to it in print, as "plainchant?"  Or as a part of the Mass?  Is it the requeim Mass, mass proper, or what?  Is it "Gregorian Chant."  Is it a "movement" of the Mass?  Help me with some terminology!

Thanks
Walter Ramsey

[houseofblackleaves]

Dies Irae is the Russian nationalist chant, literally translating to "Day of Destruction" or somthing around those lines.  It's EXTREMELY noticable in Rachmaninoff and the "Russian Fives'" compositions.

[brewtality]

The melody is a gregorian chant. The Dies Irae is a hymn (ie words) set to that melody, though people often refer to the theme itself as the Dies Irae. That's my understanding of it anyway. It can be heard all over the place, I even heard it in Billy Wilder's 'Some like it Hot'. 

[nanabush]

I don't get it... are there notes to this hymn?  Can I find a sound clip of this hymn?  I keep hearing that all these pieces are witten to the Dies Irae theme... one of my favorite sets, the etudes tableaux; many of them are written to this theme... and I don't understand how, and I don't know what i'm listening for :?:

[brewtality]

I don't get it... are there notes to this hymn?  Can I find a sound clip of this hymn?  I keep hearing that all these pieces are witten to the Dies Irae theme... one of my favorite sets, the etudes tableaux; many of them are written to this theme... and I don't understand how, and I don't know what i'm listening for :?:

surely you have heard Liszt's Totentanz? the main theme is the Dies Irae.

[nanabush]

Oh the  F-----E-----F----D----E----C-----D.... and so on

[quantum]

Wikipedia article, with the notes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dies_Irae

Pronunciation:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,15000.0.html

[pianowolfi]

This is from the german catholic songbook(Nr. 28), written in old gregorian notation ("square notes") Dies Irae is part of the Requiem mass. The subject is Judgement day, when the decision is made between good or bad souls to go to either heaven or hell. That's why the melody is so "dark" and serious, i guess.

[nanabush]

Ok I'm kinda confused, it's only on 4 lines... what are the actual notes?

[pianistimo]

and i thought i needed to get a life.  this question, bothersome as it appears at first - has a really simple answer (but i forgot it and had to get my book).  at the top you'll see a clef that encircles a line.  this is c1. 

these clefs do not indicate absolute pitches but rather the relative distance from one note to the next.  the square notes are called neumes.  if we were to read this staff - we'd read it with the same notes as liszt did with totentanz ( i think).  if you count backwards the spaces and lines - it does appear to be F as the starting note. 

did you know that this chant began as a 'sequence.'  on page 31 of 'concise history of western music' by barbara hanning ' it says 'sequences began as text additions to the jubilus in alleluias, but they quickly became independent compositions.'

notice the direction the melody is heading.  straight to hell.

(a sequence typically begins with a single line of text set to its own phrase of music; this is followed by a pair of lines each having the same number of syllables and pattern of accents, as in a poetic couplet.  these are set to a new and repeated phrase of music.  etc etc)

ok 'the sequence was an important creative outlet from the tenth to the thirteenth centuries and later.  popular sequences were even imitated and adapted for secular genres, both vocal and instrumental in the middle ages.  nevertheless, most sequences were banned fromt he catholic service by the liturgical reforms of the council of trent.  the five that survived still hold vital places in the liturgy, such as the celebrated dies irae, with its familiar melody, in the requiem mass (mass for the dead).

[pianistimo]

i read the whole text once.  it's very descriptive of the 'day of the Lord' but adds in a lot of mysterious elements that are not necessarily biblical.  thomas of celano is commonly attributed to have come up with the text, but i personally believe the sequence to be extremely ancient. 

[ramseytheii]

ok 'the sequence was an important creative outlet from the tenth to the thirteenth centuries and later.  popular sequences were even imitated and adapted for secular genres, both vocal and instrumental in the middle ages.  nevertheless, most sequences were banned fromt he catholic service by the liturgical reforms of the council of trent.  the five that survived still hold vital places in the liturgy, such as the celebrated dies irae, with its familiar melody, in the requiem mass (mass for the dead).

Thanks for all the information.  What year is your textbook from?  According to Wikipedia, (entry dies irae), this sequence was removed from the mass after the Second Vatican Council in the mid 60's.  Wikipedia calls it a "beloved text," but also quotes Archbishop Bugnini saying about Dies Irae that it, "smacked of a negative spirituality inherited from the Middle Ages.."  Outrageous!  Judgment is just as much a part of Resurrection in the Catholic faith; at least, it was. 

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

the textbook is reprinted 2002.  being that the chant is so old - it's quite surprising about the lasting quality of such a simple tune and how it was used by other composers all over the place.  (berlioz 'symphony fantastique')

my personal belief is that the tune and the text were joined - but the tune is much older.

[pianistimo]

oh.  about the text.  here's a re-doing that i kind of like:

https://merecomments.typepad.com/merecomments/2005/10/dies_irae.html

[pianistimo]

say, i found more quotations of the dies irae:

mozart requiem, medtners piano quintet in C (uses dies irae and blessed are the dead chants together), and conan the barbarian (in the violin section when a village is going down).  philip glass used the theme of the dies irae in the score for dracula.

[pianistimo]

here's a really extensive article on the dies irae and it's useage in the middle ages:

www.uark.edu/rd_vcad/urel/publications/inquiry/2003/Brooks.pdf

[pianistimo]

i am really wondering if it originated in egypt as a sort of hymn to the great aten.  he helped to record the first eclipse (aside from the biblical one) of the sun.  everything was dark.  doomsday.  how could i prove this useage of the hymn.  i can't.  but i can prove the eclipse as it was recorded by aten.  but many 'atenish' hymns have reference to doom and gloom and the great 'dagon' has a D.  the dies irae ends with D also.  'demon - dagon' whatever.

death begins with the letter D, too.

[pianistimo]

rachmaninov extensively used this theme in bells, isle of the dead, all his symphonies - as quoted under rachmaninov (style) - in wikipedia.

i found the original sybilline text here:

www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib01.htm

because it has a mixture of mysticism and biblical text - i wouldn't attribute it to only christian origins.  i think that paganism was mixed with biblicalism - otherwise the mention of magic would not be an altruistic virtue of the sons of God in Genesis.  as it may date as late as 150 ad  i would not doubt that the sybilline oracles came to women who are generally not told first - as men were instructed to teach the women (biblicallY).  the original sybil was supposedly a daughter-in-law of noah - but probably a woman who had been taught the original ways of God and became what used to be called 'pagan.'  a combination of two ways of looking at the world combined together.  the history is there - but the infiltration of two systems blended. 

the sybilline oracles was probably a work that sought in antiquity to be dated before Christ so that it could foretell his coming just as the prophet isaiah.  to me, it is a ploy easily seen through.  noone foretold Christ except early biblical writers, imo, and also, john the baptist.  to ascribe holiness to the sybilline oracles is tantamount to heresy in my book.  but, that is my opinion. 

[pianistimo]

the sibylls were supposedly prophetesses relaying messages from the god apollos.  this is a pagan tradition and not a christian one.  the character of sibyll is used in harry potter novels.

even the catholic culture web site agrees that halloween should be a 'sanctified day.' 

www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1230

this feast was anciently druidic.  for another point of view on this day, look here:
www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/halloween.html

[ahinton]

There's two substantial sets of piano variations on the theme by Sorabji - one from the mid-1920s dedicated to the memory of Busoni and another from the latter 1940s entitled Sequentia Cyclica - one of his best works of all - dedicated to Busoni's favourite pupil Egon Petri. There's at least nine hours' worth to be going on with...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

There's two substantial sets of piano variations on the theme by Sorabji - one from the mid-1920s dedicated to the memory of Busoni and another from the latter 1940s entitled Sequentia Cyclica - one of his best works of all - dedicated to Busoni's favourite pupil Egon Petri. There's at least nine hours' worth to be going on with...

Best,

Alistair

Was Petri, even aware of Sorabj`s existens?!

Sorabji did hear Petri play, and Petri was also Ogdon`s teacher and Ogdon knew Sorabj.

[ahinton]

Was Petri, even aware of Sorabj`s existens?!

Sorabji did hear Petri play, and Petri was also Ogdon`s teacher and Ogdon knew Sorabj.

Sorabji did indeed know Petri. Their friendship began after Sorabji had reviewed Petri's London performances, which he began to do in 1925. We have some of the correspondence between them; other such items are in a private collection. Petri evidently told Sorabji about John Ogdon when the young Ogdon went to study with him is Basel in the latter 1950s; sadly, the letter appears to be missing, but according to Sorabji himself, Petri said that he (Sorabji) simply must listen to him (Ogdon) as he was the most talented pianist he had ever had the pleasure to teach. Ogdon met Sorabji only once, in 1960; they were introduced to one another not by Petri (who had by then been based on the West coast of USA for some years) but by the Scottish composer and pianist Ronald Stevenson.

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Thanks for that information.

Did Petri have any oppinion on Sorabj`s music?

[ahinton]

Thanks for that information.

Did Petri have any oppinion on Sorabj`s music?

I am sure that he must have done, despite having seen little of it and heard still less, but if such an opinion is recorded in correspondence or other sources we do not have any information about it.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

There's at least nine hours' worth to be going on with...

Best,

Alistair

Must be one of his shorter works then.

Thal

[ahinton]

Must be one of his shorter works then.

Thal

Two, Thal. Two.

Best.

Alistair

[Nightscape]

Rachmaninoff was the master of this 'melody'.  He used it in a staggering number of his compositions.  I've personally heard it in everything from his etudes, to his symphonies, to his sonatas.... it's also in his final major work, the great Symphonic Dances.  Rachmaninoff was obsessed with this melody!  But in my opinion it enhances his music - it gives his entire body of work a great unifying element.

[nanabush]

I also heard it's in the Rach etudes... but could someone actually tell me exactly where in one of his etudes this theme comes up?  I can't seem to find it at all 

[ramseytheii]

I also heard it's in the Rach etudes... but could someone actually tell me exactly where in one of his etudes this theme comes up?  I can't seem to find it at all 

Start by checking op. 39 no.2, in the left hand, that is the most obvious.  I've also found it in other etudes and can post more specific if you like, but I need my score here.

Walter Ramsey

[kevinatcausa]

Another famous Rachmaninov use of the Dies Irae is in his Paganini Rhapsody, where it acts as a sort of countermelody to the main theme for many of the variations (if you have a recording, the melody appears very obviously in the brass about 20-30 seconds before the end, right before the big piano descent).