Question for the Sorabji lovers

[pies]

Have any of you worked on any of his pieces? If so, any recordings?


Please keep the whole Sorabji sucks debate out of this thread. I am slowly beginning to love his works and hereby recant my old anti-Sorabji beliefs.

[pies]

It is amazing how his pieces become more 'clear' and how the structure becomes noticeable after a few listenings.

[JCarey]

Have any of you worked on any of his pieces? If so, any recordings?

I have worked on several of his works. I learned to play In the Hothouse with relative ease (it isn't that difficult, actually) as well as his toccata from the same set. I have also studied St. Bertrand..., as well as the Carmen Pastiche, though I don't play either in their entirety. I've recently begun studying the Concerto per suonare da me solo, which is by far the most difficult piece I've worked on.

I don't enjoy recording myself, so I haven't recorded any of these pieces. I'll leave that to the likes of Jonathan Powell.

Please keep the whole Sorabji sucks debate out of this thread.

I totally agree.

[pies]

Was the toccata difficult for you? I've been thinking of learning it.

[JCarey]

Was the toccata difficult for you? I've been thinking of learning it.

I didn't find it terribly difficult. The hardest part for me was memorization, because the piece rarely repeats itself. But, with patience and a lot of metrenome work, I don't think this piece will be too problematic for you. It's quite fun to play once you've learned it, though certain sections can feel very unpianistic.

[pies]

a lot of metrenome work

What do you mean by this?

[Nightscape]

How do you go about purchasing the scores to those pieces?  I also enjoy them, and I think I could tackle them.  But how did you acquire the sheet music?

[pies]

I, uhh, downloaded them. I won't tell where since I'm sure ahinton will come in this thread yelling copyright infringement.

[JCarey]

What do you mean by this?

I mean work... with a metronome...? I'm sorry for the mispelling, if that is what threw you.

How do you go about purchasing the scores to those pieces?  I also enjoy them, and I think I could tackle them.  But how did you acquire the sheet music?

www.sorabji-archive.co.uk

Alistair Hinton will probably provide you with further instructions. The score is not expensive, and well worth purchasing in order to support the Sorabji Archive.

[pies]

I've never used a metronome in my life. 

[JCarey]

I've never used a metronome in my life. 

And I would rarely recommend it for Sorabji's music, however, it is important to keep in mind that clarity and evenness of tempo is very important in this particular work. If you find no benefit from use of the metronome, then that is fine, I just found that it was largely helpful for me in learning this piece.

[jre58591]

ive never really "played" any sorabji pieces, but i have studied quite a few of them. if i were to ever learn any, i would learn the toccata (not no 1) and in the hothouse (from the same set). those are the easiest pieces ive seen. i think those two and his other early works would be the best bets to start off with.

[ahinton]

I, uhh, downloaded them. I won't tell where since I'm sure ahinton will come in this thread yelling copyright infringement.

No, I won't - because there's already been ample information provided for most people to know the proper way to go about getting Sorabji's and others' scores; in any case, most of Sorabji's scores are not downloadable anyway and some of those that are may not be the best copies in any case, especially for those who wish to try to learn the pieces. There are plenty of new and not-so-new editions available from us now (most of them typeset) and their number increases regularly.

I won't repeat where to source this material either, since John has already done this in this thread and elsewhere.

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

If I would ever learn a Sorabji piece it would the Pastiche On Hindu Merchant Song From Sadko.

So beautifull, and probably a walk in the park compared to the rest of Sorabji`s output.
Did Sorabji compose any other pieces in this soundscape?

What dissapoints me the most about Sorabji is that his so called exotic nocturnes sounds so grey. Actually a lot of Sorabji`s music sounds grey, and I know that this isn`t what he aimed for. I may change my mind about this is the near future, when I will re-listen.

[ahinton]

If I would ever learn a Sorabji piece it would the Pastiche On Hindu Merchant Song From Sadko.

So beautifull, and probably a walk in the park compared to the rest of Sorabji`s output.
Did Sorabji compose any other pieces in this soundscape?

What dissapoints me the most about Sorabji is that is so called exotic nocturnes sounds so grey. Actually a lot of Sorabji`s music sounds grey, and I know that this isn`t what he aimed for. I may change my mind about this is the near future, when I will re-listen.

Well, if they have indeed sounded "grey" to you in the past, do bear in mind the performance factor; I imagine it would be possible to play these works and make them sound this way if one had insufficient understanding of how to do otherwise and, indeed, I once had the most unpleasant experience of listening to someone attempting to play Le Jardin Parfumé here at The Sorabji Archive, distending it improbably to almost 45 minutes and I need hardly assure you that "grey" as the very nicest way one could describe that "performance"...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Haberman and Powell.

Maybe the reason why i find them grey is because I "want" them to sound like Blanchet`s Au Jardin de Vieux Serail or some of Ornstein`s oriental pieces. And I love those. I  guess I will change my mind about this in the future.

But what did you say to this poor pianist after the "performance"?

[ahinton]

But what did you say to this poor pianist after the "performance"?

It was hard to know what to say or how best to say it, really. Sorabji was still alive then and I had arranged with him that I would take this pianist to him the following day to play to him - until I'd heard said pianist, that is. Sorabji would have been horrified had I proceeded with this visit and, with no small embarassment and due apology, I accordingly cancelled it at less than a day's notice.

In an effort to remain as discreet as possible, I told the pianist that his representations of this and two other Sorabji pieces were entirely at odds with the composer's intentions and that, in all conscience, I could not therefore expect to accompany him to the composer so that he could play to him. Only at this point did I discover that this pianist was already scheduled to perform some Sorabji in public and I had to explain to him that he would not be able to do so with the composer's sanction. No one but the pianist could then have cancelled this event - and it was not cancelled. Unsurprisingly, I did not attend it myself. One distinguished and knowledgeable critic who did so told me afterwards that, although he had often queued to get into concerts, this had been the first that he'd queued to get out of.

This was certainly an experience of the kind that I have no desire ever to have to repeat. My rôle and desire is naturally not to seek to stand as judge and jury over different musicians' interpretations of Sorabji - far from it - but on this occasion I had to confront not legitimate interpretative licence but complete distension and distortion of the music.

I am sorry that you've reminded me of this profoundly unpleasant occasion, but I can understand why you asked the question to which I hope you find this a satisfactory answer.

Best,

Alistair

[pies]

I am in love with this toccata. 

[debussy symbolism]

but on this occasion I had to confront not legitimate interpretative licence but complete distension and distortion of the music.

Is "complete distension and distortion of the music" not interpretation in itself?

[ahinton]

Is "complete distension and distortion of the music" not interpretation in itself?

You could argue that it is, but if the entire point of the music is lost by one such as that which I mentioned above, its legitimacy as an alleged "performance of the composer's work is largely lost; this is why I felt obliged to respond as I did on the occasion concerned.

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

I understood from your first post that you wasn`t going to name the pianist. Could you just tell me if it is a famous pianist(with recording deal and everything), or just just an amatour(sp?), or if it is just a proffesional pianists who isn`t famous?

[ahinton]

I understood from your first post that you wasn`t going to name the pianist. Could you just tell me if it is a famous pianist(with recording deal and everything), or just just an amatour(sp?), or if it is just a proffesional pianists who isn`t famous?

You were - and are - correct in your understanding. The pianist is not very well known and I do not believe that there is a discography. That's all I have to say!

Best,

Alistair

[moi_not_toi]

Has anyone here ever attempted the Cadenza I from OC?
I'm seriously thinking about it.

[pies]

I love the sound of these chords.

[jre58591]

i bet that makes people's ears hurt, just by looking at it. what part is that from, btw?

[pies]

i bet that makes people's ears hurt, just by looking at it. what part is that from, btw?

~2:30 (Habermann recording) of the mentioned Toccata from the toccata and hothouse set from 1920.
It sounds more pleasing than you'd expect.

[jre58591]

~2:30 (Habermann recording) of the mentioned Toccata from the toccata and hothouse set from 1920.
It sounds more pleasing than you'd expect.

no, ive heard this before, and i like it, but i bet that some people would find it revolting.

[pies]

no, ive heard this before, and i like it, but i bet that some people would find it revolting.

which is quite unfortunate.

[debussy symbolism]

You could argue that it is, but if the entire point of the music is lost by one such as that which I mentioned above, its legitimacy as an alleged "performance of the composer's work is largely lost; this is why I felt obliged to respond as I did on the occasion concerned.

Best,

Alistair

Sorry to appear repetitious, but again I must claim that music isn't bound to the exact and precise. That is why it's an art. What may appear legit and totally acceptable may not be for another, especially concerning music that isn't often played or at least recorded. Bach for instance is often though of needing to be played in a strict, exact way, without much legato(eight notes). However, would it be wrong to have it be played completely different, as in a very rubato, legato way? It is not written anywhere that that is wrong. The same goes for the said pianist who attempted a Sorabji work. In his defense, would he not have played the work differently if to him it sounded bad?

This argument can go on forever because this issue is really based on opinion and taste.

[ahinton]

Sorry to appear repetitious, but again I must claim that music isn't bound to the exact and precise. That is why it's an art. What may appear legit and totally acceptable may not be for another, especially concerning music that isn't often played or at least recorded. Bach for instance is often though of needing to be played in a strict, exact way, without much legato(eight notes). However, would it be wrong to have it be played completely different, as in a very rubato, legato way? It is not written anywhere that that is wrong. The same goes for the said pianist who attempted a Sorabji work. In his defense, would he not have played the work differently if to him it sounded bad?

This argument can go on forever because this issue is really based on opinion and taste.

It mustn't go on forever, otherwise it will irritate many readers. As a compser myself, I know as well as anyone that there is such a thing as interpretative license and so there should be. The point I made is that wht this person played departed so much from what the composer had written that it was laergely unrecognisable as Sorabji's work - not only to me but to most people who attended his public recital of it. We composers can sometimes be delighted when intelligent performers see things in our work that we may have overlooked ourselves, but there is a whole world of difference between that and what happend when this pianist came to try to play Sorabji works here.

I should add, without at all wishing to be rude to anyone, that I did actually hear what he did, whereas no on else on this forum did, so I am inevitably having to speak from a different experiential position than that of anyone else who happens to query it here.

Best,

Alistair

[debussy symbolism]

It mustn't go on forever, othersise it will irritate many readers. As a compser myself, I know as well as anyone that there is such a thing as interpretative license and so there should be. The point I made is that wht this person played departed so much from what the composer had written that it was laergely unrecognisable as Sorabji's work - not only to me but to most people who attended his public recital of it. We composers can sometimes be delighted when intelligent performers see things in our work that we may have overlooked ourselves, but there is a whole world of difference between that and what happend when this pianist came to try to play Sorabji works here.

I should add, without at all wishing to be rude to anyone, that I did actually hear what he did, whereas no on else on this forum did, so I am inevitably having to speak from a different experiential position than that of anyone else who happens to query it here.

Best,

Alistair

I will have to agree with you here, since you knew the composer personally and have more insight into his music than the said pianist most probably.

Best wishes.

[pies]

What does the "I/VIII" in the top staff (shown in the screenshot) signify?

[prometheus]

Must be the time signature.

[Nightscape]

I think it means you play that staff an octave higher than written.

[jre58591]

I think it means you play that staff an octave higher than written.

yes that is what it means. sometimes you see it as "Î". other times, he uses a treble clef with an 8 above it.

here are two examples:

[debussy symbolism]

To Ahinton.

I know that the moment was probably very inconvinient for both you and Sorabji(If I may refer to him by his last name), but wouldn't it be better if the said pianist got to know the composer's music better by having acquiaintanced with the composer himself, who might be in the position to provide insight. It'll both help the pianist as an individual and help spread the interpretational validity to others, who will then see to it that the music is played in accordance to said word, that of the composer. What good is it to just send the pianist off without any sort of guidance? If it was a no possible situation however, then it's another story.

[pies]

I love the first two movements (inoito and preludio-corale) from Opus Clav. I feel like such an idiot for hating Sorabji.

[jre58591]

I love the first two movements (inoito and preludio-corale) from Opus Clav. I feel like such an idiot for hating Sorabji.

haha that sentence is an oxymoron.

[invictious]

Who the hell wants to play random notes and ink spilled on manuscript anyway?
I do that all the time, why am I not famous!?!?!?!? 

[jre58591]

Who the hell wants to play random notes and ink spilled on manuscript anyway?
I do that all the time, why am I not famous!?!?!?!? 

your ignorance is truly amusing. go back to listening to rondo alla turca.

Please keep the whole Sorabji sucks debate out of this thread. I am slowly beginning to love his works and hereby recant my old anti-Sorabji beliefs.

keep out of here if you are just going to bash him. if pies can learn to like sorabji, so can you.

[invictious]

your ignorance is truly amusing. go back to listening to rondo alla turca.keep out of here if you are just going to bash him. if pies can learn to like sorabji, so can you.

I was specifically referring to the OC.

Why, I see absolutely no structure to that piece, it's just random notes, unless you can point it out to me, that why it's so famous, besides being the 'hardest piece in the world' because it's random notes, a lot of them.

[jre58591]

I was specifically referring to the OC.

Why, I see absolutely no structure to that piece, it's just random notes, unless you can point it out to me, that why it's so famous, besides being the 'hardest piece in the world' because it's random notes, a lot of them.

ill wait for mr hinton to explain trhe structure to you, for he can do that in better detail than i. and it isnt the hardest piece in the world. i can think of a few that surpass it in length and difficulty.

[invictious]

Excuse me for my ignorance, but what is the deal with Alistair Hinton and Sorabji?

[jre58591]

Excuse me for my ignorance, but what is the deal with Alistair Hinton and Sorabji?

well, i should let alistair explain this further. to put it simply, they were acquaintances and fellow composers. also, alistair hinton is the curator of the sorabji archive, which holds the copyrights to all of his music. therefore, he knows a heck of a lot about sorabji.

[invictious]

So if I want to make Mr.Hinton angry, I just download music of Sorabji illegally?

Well thanks for that, I am waiting for him to stumble upon here.
Stumble is a pretty weak word in this case.

[thalbergmad]

your ignorance is truly amusing. go back to listening to rondo alla turca.

OI, dats my favourite.

Thal

[mephisto]

I was specifically referring to the OC.

Why, I see absolutely no structure to that piece, it's just random notes, unless you can point it out to me, that why it's so famous, besides being the 'hardest piece in the world' because it's random notes, a lot of them.

The piece is one of the most structured pieces of music I have ever heard or seen.

Do you know what a fugue is? This piece contains many fugues. A normal fugue do usually start with a single subject; so a fugue starts out as a singled voiced piece. That subject is normally repeated in the fugue almost all the time. After the first subject is played, you will hear a counter subject being played at the same time as the first subject is being played in a different key. This is true for Bach, and so sadly for you it is also true for Sorabji

If you have the score to any of the fugues on the infamous opus clavicembalisticum you will see that there are at least three fugues(I havent got the score with me right now). Just look at the fugues: First you will see a single subject, then a counter subject will be played at the same time as the first subject is played in a different key. If Sorabjis music really was random notes what on earth is the probability that the same subject will be repeated so many times in a single piece ? Hate or love Sorabji as a composer, pianist or critic, but please know something about the music before you criticise it. It is for your own good.

I am sure Hinton will explain it in a better way.

[thalbergmad]

So if I want to make Mr.Hinton angry, I just download music of Sorabji illegally?

Well thanks for that, I am waiting for him to stumble upon here.
Stumble is a pretty weak word in this case.

I have left a space for him to place his response.






























































































































































































































































































































Thal

[prometheus]

I was specifically referring to the OC.

Why, I see absolutely no structure to that piece, it's just random notes, unless you can point it out to me, that why it's so famous, besides being the 'hardest piece in the world' because it's random notes, a lot of them.

It won't take long before you are just like Pies. At one point in time you will feel like a really big idiot for making these totally ignorant and uninformed statements.

[ahinton]

To Ahinton.

I know that the moment was probably very inconvinient for both you and Sorabji(If I may refer to him by his last name), but wouldn't it be better if the said pianist got to know the composer's music better by having acquiaintanced with the composer himself, who might be in the position to provide insight. It'll both help the pianist as an individual and help spread the interpretational validity to others, who will then see to it that the music is played in accordance to said word, that of the composer. What good is it to just send the pianist off without any sort of guidance? If it was a no possible situation however, then it's another story.

How do you suppose that someone who had so little understanding of the music to begin with would suddenly have developed so much more grasp of it just by virtue of meeting the composer? Sorabji discouraged public performances of his music for quite a few years because he did not wish to be misunderstood - and it is precisely the risk of the kind of travesty of his work offered by this particular pianist that prompted his stance in the first place. I can tell you that all the guidance in the world would have made no difference in this instance. I did not merely "dismiss" this pianist; I said exactly why the accounts I had just heard differed from the composer's intentions - and the pianist wasn't having this, so there was really nothing more to be said. Once again, please remember that I was present to listen to this playing and I do know enough of the subject to recognise that what was played was largely unrecognisable as Sorabji.

Best,

Alistair