Practicing Techniques-Applied to Specific problems

[dnephi]

When I am learning a piece, I often use rythms to deal with passagework and accuracy.  Sometimes I just have to do it slowly and solidly with a metronome. 

For a few months,I have been working on the Liszt Mazeppa in addition to my lesson.  My teacher said that she would listen to what I have, and then she would decide if I could learn it.  I know the entire piece,but I need to improve my accuracy in the main theme.  I chose to be authentic and use 24-24 and so it is rather difficult to be accurate.

Anyways, how do you think I should practice the thirds? Rythms?  Double each note? Slow steady metronome incrementing?

Thanks for the help in advance.

[nortti]

What I would do..

First leave the melody and bass out.
Practice groups of two thirds as fast as possible.
Then two consecutive groups (1st and 2nd; 2nd and 3rd). Then all three.

Then melody+bass followed by the first two thirds. Then m+b followed by first four thirds, and finally by all the thirds.
Then the last two thirds followed by melody+bass. Then last four 3rds -- m+b, and finally all thirds -- m+b.
Then melody+bass, thirds, melody+bass.

Repeat this for every occurence of the pattern.
Then you should be able to play all of those half-measures at a very high speed.
You may slow down when you start connecting the half-measures together.

There's my crystal clear explanation..

[pianistimo]

arrau's book 'on music and performance' - says on pg 107 or thereabouts that he practiced 14 hours a day on mazeppa.  one neighbor gave him a bill because he had to go to a nerve sanitorium.  arrau's mother  - after certain number of hours - would politely ask him if he could practice something else.

[dnephi]

arrau's book 'on music and performance' - says on pg 107 or thereabouts that he practiced 14 hours a day on mazeppa.  one neighbor gave him a bill because he had to go to a nerve sanitorium.  arrau's mother  - after certain number of hours - would politely ask him if he could practice something else.

That's pretty crazy.  Do you think I should just "Master both fingerings" as the Schirmer 1903 edition suggests, and play 24-13?  That would also get prepared for the third version of the theme in finger positions.  Do you think that it is admissable to "facilitate" the fingering if I play it just as evenly and con strepito as with the 24-24 fingering?

14 hours a day... That's scary.

[bernhard]

arrau's book 'on music and performance' - says on pg 107 or thereabouts that he practiced 14 hours a day on mazeppa.  one neighbor gave him a bill because he had to go to a nerve sanitorium.  arrau's mother  - after certain number of hours - would politely ask him if he could practice something else.

Yes, when he was a youngster, before he knew better, and before he got a proper teacher (Krause). Soon however the wised up and saw that it was a waste of time. Check out this interview with David Dubal:

Do you have any general advice for students?

Let me think. Off hand, I would say if you need strength in a certain passage, practise with more force than you actually need in performance so that the listener has the feeling, “Oh, he could play that much faster or more powerfully if he wanted to.” One should not only overcome a technical problem, but one must surpass it.

Speaking of technique, many have spoken about the musicality of your trills.

A trill can’t just be good, it must be in the mood of the phrase it’s in, and its surroundings.

Do you still get satisfaction from practising?

I think it’s beautiful to practise; I love to practise. On the average I do now two to three hours a day. But sometimes I am a bit lazy. Krause used to have me stay away from the piano for at least a month in the summer, so as not to get stale, and I still do it quite often. Then when I go back to the piano it’s really an event.

(David Dubal – The World of the Concert Pianist – Victor Gollancz – p. 31 - my highlight)

Best wishes
Bernhard.

[dnephi]

So the idea is to use much force on those thirds to make them more solid and then use less force in performance?  I practiced today and found that slow simple practicing with a metronome, and practicing the thirds in all dynamic levels from pp to ff helped and I think I'll be fine.  Thanks to all who spoke.

By the way, Bernhard, do you have a link to a post about overcoming "difficult passages"?

[leucippus]

Krause used to have me stay away from the piano for at least a month in the summer, so as not to get stale, and I still do it quite often.[/b] Then when I go back to the piano it’s really an event.

(David Dubal – The World of the Concert Pianist – Victor Gollancz – p. 31 - my highlight)

I wholehearted agree with this philosophy.  I started playing the violin and piano in February of 2005.   I practiced very intensely with both instruments for about 4 months until about may.  Then I got side-tracked into other things during the summer and I wasn't able to practice at all for about 3 months.  

In September I started back to practicing a again.  I was a bit discouraged as it almost felt like starting over in some ways.  And the pieces and techniques that I had learn were indeed rusty, but within a week of practicing I was back and the beautiful thing was that I was actually better than when I left off in the spring.  I could play much more smoothly and fluently and learning new pieces was even easier too.  So if anything the break actually helped.  Although I don't think a person needs to break for 3 months.  In my case I had no choice.

Last winter I practiced up a storm again on both instruments.  This spring I once again was forced to take a break.  I'm not practicing this summer hardly at all.  Not to imply that I don't play a little bit here and there, but overall I'm not really practicing intensely at all.  I simply don't have the time or energy to do that right now.  Come September I hope to have another winter blitzkrieg of practice again.  I feel very confident that I will experience the same kind of rejuvenated experience that I had last fall.  So I'm kind of Leap-frogging my ability to play these instruments over every winter.

Moreover, when I do practice during the winter months I do it so intensely that I do tend to get burned out.  And that usually corresponds very nicely with the coming of spring.  So I think I've gotten myself into a nice cycle here purely by accident.

[bernhard]

So the idea is to use much force on those thirds to make them more solid and then use less force in performance?  I practiced today and found that slow simple practicing with a metronome, and practicing the thirds in all dynamic levels from pp to ff helped and I think I'll be fine.  Thanks to all who spoke.

By the way, Bernhard, do you have a link to a post about overcoming "difficult passages"?

Strictly speaking there are no difficult piano pieces/ sections. However there are very complex piano pieces/sections. The way to deal with complexity is to simplify it. The main ways to do that are:

i.   Practise in small sections (some times two notes only)
ii.   Outline the piece/section.
iii.   Deconstruct the piece/section in layers and then learn each layer in isolation, then combine and add the layers (e.g. in counterpoint music learn each voice separately; in motif based music, learn only the motif and its occurrences/variations, then add the non-motif notes, etc.)
iv.   Practise hands separate.

Here are some threads that deal with some of these aspects in more detail:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5298.msg50376.html#msg50376
(alternative to the chord trick – Rhythm variations  - repeated note-groups – starting with the difficult bars – how to break down a piece in sessions – ways to tackle speed that do not involve the chord trick – Bernhard: A plagiarist?)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1867.msg14268.html#msg14268
(Getting technique from pieces – several important tricks: hand memory, dropping notes, repeated note-groups)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,9285.msg94312.html#msg94312
(outlining: example – with score – Chopin etude op. 25 no. 1)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7810.msg80415.html#msg80415
(How to organise the breaking down of a piece over several days. Examples: CPE Bach Fantasia, Blow Sarabande, Chopin Cantabile; Chopin Scherzo no. 2)

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168
(repeated note-groups for difficult passages – correct technique is never uncomfortable – rotation as the solution to 5th finger weakness – criticism to misguided technical exercises – trusting the unconscious)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7246.msg72307.html#msg72307
(how to outline invention 14)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3561.msg31700.html#msg31700
(Questions about Bernhard’s method – Bernhard’s answers – mostly about the 7 X 20 principle, how do you know when you mastered a section, when to use the methods, and when they are not necessary – investigating the reasons for difficult)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4689.msg44184.html#msg44184
(Bernhard answers questions and elucidates further about: 20 minutes – practice starts when you get it right – definition of mastery : learned – mastered – omniscience – Aim for easy – final speed in practice must be faster than performance speed – Example: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2 – outline – repeated note groups – HS x HT)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4710.msg44538.html#msg44538
(Bernhard explains once more about 7 x 20 minutes – Progress is the ultimate decider – How to break a piece in practice sessions – Example: Satie gymnopedie – importance of planning – aim at 100 pieces per year – Example: Bach Cm WTC 2 -)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4750.msg45125.html#msg45125
(more details: learned – mastered –omniscience – why repertory must be paramount – how to work on 20 pieces per month – a case for easy repertory – importance of discipline and of having a plan – analogy of mastering a piece and making wine – musicality is ultimately good taste – Example: Beethoven op. 49 no. 2- A list of progressive repertory to lead to Rach prelude op. 32 no. 5 – mastery is when it is easy)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4797.msg45744.html#msg45744
(No skipped steps – Bernhard enlightens further and tells the usual places where students go wrong – Ht x HS)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4858.msg46087.html#msg46087
(Paul’s report on B’s method. Feedback from Bernhard including: HS x HT – Example: Lecuona’s malaguena – 7x20 – need to adjust and adapt – repeated note-groups – importance of HS – hand memory – 7 items only in consciousness – playing in automatic pilot - )

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4059.msg37072.html#msg37072
(Does there come a time when piano learning will not be so difficult – The problem: a good teacher, enough practice and yet very slow progress –  approach maybe everything: practice to make it easy. Guardian link to Alan Rustrbridge article – summary of PPI - alternate hands)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4004.msg47440.html#msg47440
(3 correct X wrong attitudes when practising)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4123.msg37829.html#msg37829
(How to investigate the best movement pattern: Example Scarlatti sonata K70 – How to work out the best fingering. Example: CPE Bach Allegro in A – Slow x slow motion practice – HS x HT – practising for only 5 – 10 minutes)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7664.msg77057.html#msg77057
(How to break a piece in sessions – Example: Invention no. 1).

I hope this helps .

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bella musica]

One more hint (I don't know if this is anywhere in those threads Bernhard listed but I'm not going to search through every single one to find out).  Try playing them staccato, or even staccato with the different rhythms you've already been using.  Once you can do that, legato (or whatever it is, I don't remember) will be a piece of cake, relatively speaking...